Bengals' Marvin Lewis should go? OK, I'll play. What's after that?
by Kirkendall
on Dec 17, 2007 12:15 PM EST
in Analysis
Marvin has got to go...
Marvin has lost the team...
Marvin can't take us to that next level...
These are comments from many fans. The reason for the ferocious demand to see Marvin go? Well, the issues range from game management to personnel choices. Game management is a valid argument. But personnel decisions? Not even Lewis can predict such a dynamic future. He can't judge a player's health according to Nostradamus logs. Nor can he judge a player's past conduct as the sole reason for not picking someone up. Talent? Yea, I can agree there. As much as many demand that the team become the beacon of moral values, Lewis is much more concerned with winning -- at any cost. And with reason. That's his job. If he doesn't produce wins, the moral character of a select few never enters the equation -- though it's a big talking point for the anti-Lewis crowd.
Here's the thing. If Lewis is let go, what's the solution? So your homework this week is to project a Bengals organization, post-Lewis and tell me... who the Bengals will select as the next head coach. If we're so eager to promote the firing of one, then surely you have a solution. Right? I mean, you're not just mindlessly promoting firing Lewis simply to fire him, are you? You're not telling me that post-Lewis, without a head coach, is better than now, are you?
I do believe that this team needs to make sweeping changes. Perhaps even take a step back in 2008 to take two steps forward in 2009. Here's an interesting thought, wouldn't there be a lot of addition by subtraction? Consider that Justin Smith, Bryan Robinson, Landon Johnson, Rashad Jeanty (RFA) and Madieu Williams will be without contract for 2008. The future of Odell Thurman's role with Cincinnati needs to be determined, again, and the search for a Deltha O'Neal trade-suitor should be high on the "honey-do" list. No matter what I think, this team must change. Perhaps, radically.
More Nostradamus thinking from Dayton Daily News.
The NFL Network was set up for a big victory on Saturday, especially in the Midwest. Because snow, rain, ice and general weather doom caused many to stay home for the evening, they couldn't have traveled to the local bar or friend's house with DirecTV to see the NFL Network game. Realizing they really were missing out by not having the NFL Network on cable, that group might've been more motivated to cry foul to the cable companies.
And what was the game they missed? Cincinnati at San Francisco, the equivalent of Fading Interest at Who Cares. These football fans cuddling with loved ones under blankets or searching for 1,000th-repeat TBS movies weren't saying to themselves, "Gee, sure wish I had that football game tonight I can't get out to see." Instead, it was "When are the Patriots on?"
- The NFL schedules the games in advance. There's no way they could have determined if the game would have been between two teams with a combined 8-18 record heading into Saturday's game.
- While the NFL truly believes that are far beyond the power of God, they still can't force the hand of a weather front.
- No matter what the match-up, people just don't care about the NFL Network as most NFL executives and owners think that it's first and foremost in our nightly television schedules. Especially when many families sat at home on Saturday night watching movies.
YES, the Dolphins won.
I have to give credit to the Ravens. They've been the Bengals' best friends this season. Not only have 40% of our victories come against the Ravens, but they got beat by the one team that most Bengals fans feared. The now-not winless Miami Dolphins.
...and other NFL stuff.
Without a game Sunday, the networks in Cincinnati gave us some intriguing (not really) games. When I saw Cleveland's field for the Browns win over the Bills, I was pumped. I hate football being this suddenly pristine sport. Slop, freezing cold, snow and gail-force winds are always a variable that football fans love.
What I also got to see, was every single NFC East team playing against each other. The Eagles defense dominated Tony Romo to the tune of a 22.2 passer rating and the Washington Redskins' Clinton Portis took it to the New York Giants -- who don't look like a playoff team. What I also got to see was Brett Favre's record-breaking short slant pass to become the league's all-time yardage leader and another second half meltdown by the St. Louis Rams.
All in all, not a bad Sunday.
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Give up on Marvin? Not a chance!
For example - I don't blame Marvin Lewis for John Busing getting sucked inside on a bootleg and making Shaun Hill look like Micheal Vick while he ran for a TD - I blame John Busing AND I blame Chuck Bresnahan - the idiot responsible for the steaming pile of dog crap that is the Bengals defense.
I also don't blame Marvin Lewis for Chad Johnson dropping a TD that would have tied it up - or Jonathan Joseph dropping an interception. I think Marvin has earned he right to clean house - starting with Bresnahan.
I still think that the Bengals have a core group of players that will be good for a long time (Palmer, TJ, Henry, CJ, Geathers, Hall, THurmond). Let's see what Lewis can do in free agency to replace Justin Smith and Dexter Jackson before we throw the baby out with the bathwater.
It will really make the season if we can expose the Browns for the frauds they are.
by TarZander on Dec 17, 2007 12:40 PM EST 0 recs
More on Marvin
For those that are more serious, I'm saying that I don't think any coach could, right now, that we know is available, right this ship without additional external help -- i.e, scouting and GM.
by Kirkendall on Dec 17, 2007 1:13 PM EST 0 recs
Changes
Well this team doesn't give a fan hope right now. In many ways it feels like the 2-14 season. When Katie Blackburn takes over the rumor is the franchise will get "a football guy." A GM won't matter though without scouts. If you study NFL player personnel structures there is a need for a separate college and pro-personnel director. An advance scout (could be done by pro player personnel guy) and 4-6 college scouts.
There is a need for transformational change with the organization. It's clear the team is going to need a "get tough" guy to get control of the locker room. Head Coach ideas include Russ Grimm, Ron Rivera, Rex Ryan and Dean Pees.
I don't have time to deal with positions now but suffice to say wholesale changes must be made to the roster.
by bg on Dec 17, 2007 4:05 PM EST 0 recs
Give up on Marvin?
That said, I would stick with Marvin, but dump the two coordinators. I have mentioned before that "BOB HAS TO GO" and each week he makes my comments look genius. I know he doesn't over throw the recievers, and I know he doesn't drop passes. But clearly this offense is too complicated for this group. The fancy calls seem to be a cover-up for average talent, as he must believe simple plays will never work. I still love a 5 yard slant on first down. I still like a tight-end 6 yard out pattern. And yes, I love the fly pattern / bomb to Chris Henry. But ball control and points ultimately win games - even if it's ugly. I feel like a broken record, but RESULTS are all that matters. This group isn't getting it done, and since you can't get 50 new players and your Head Coach is staying, you need to make the changes in the other areas.
On the locker room issues, this is what happens to losers. It's a selfish league with selfish players. These issues are in every locker room, but you only hear it from the teams that are losing. I love Chad (even this year, he hasn't been his best, but he's still very good), but I could be convinced that trading him would ultimately help the team. The Cowboys did it with H. Walker. The problem is I don't trust the Katie & Mikey to build the team successfully.
---I can't believe this, coaching issues, the word "rebuilding" is even being considered...it's the Dave Shula years all over again; how sad is this????---
by BenZoo on Dec 17, 2007 10:35 PM EST 0 recs
Response to Bengals Marvin Lewis Should Go.
Why yes, Lewis should go. Yes, I realize what happened 2005 and how the team got into the playoffs but now I'm thinking how much of this was that a nucleus talent was already present when the coach got here and how much has he altered the balance of talent that the team had. I mean look at it, there has been a ton of player cuts and player pick ups during the course of the season. If some of the players that were on the team for the first game weren't good enough then how good are the people that are replacing them and how good are the star players?
Note that I said personnel decisions in reference to keeping injured players on the sidelines instead of putting them on IR. MLB Brooks played a game and half but it was week 10 before he went on the IR. Caleb Miller hung around for 4 or 5 weeks before he got shelved. Willie Anderson has been out 6-8 weeks this season and there are only 2 weeks left. Why play him now?
Those are just the decisions regarding injured players. Let's talk about the people that played and were developed during the preseason only to get cut right before the first game. 2 or 3 LBs that played through the preseason were cut before the first game. I think that Frazer was cut after the season started. I just can't believe that those players weren't someway good enough to play. Why would you play these guys if they aren't good enough to make the team. Why let Henry get any preseason snaps at all if he isn't going to be eligible to play until the 9th game of the season? Any snaps that Henry got likely hurt other players according to opportunities and experience that would've ended up helping the team.
And finally, why are you asking the fans..... who do you have that can replace Lewis? Duh, what is this, an episode of survivor or something? Didn't the team have another alternative in case of hiring Lewis? How the hell do the other teams go out and find coaches that get the job done? Did the fans pick Lewis the last time? We're football fans are we really supposed to tell Mike Brown who to hire?
Note that I'm watching the Chicago and Minn game right now and the defense on each of these teams are smacking the crap each other. Sure the offenses are not that great but these team know the principal rule of defense wins football games. Here we have the highly touted defensive genius who led Baltimore to the Super Bowl and the defensive ranking has fallen into the toliet over the last 3 years.
I think that you should do your homework and tell us how a defensive guru would allow his team to fall to 30th in the league plus tell us what he has contributed to the defensive of this team.
by davidincincinnati on Dec 17, 2007 10:44 PM EST 0 recs
RE
"I think that you should do your homework and tell us how a defensive guru would allow his team to fall to 30th in the league plus tell us what he has contributed to the defensive of this team."
Like it or not, the team (and or system) is only as good as their players. I didn't, nor have I ever, expect Lewis to magically twirl his wand and suddenly have a powerhouse defense. Lewis had that talent in Baltimore. He's failed to develop that in Cincinnati. But that's an issue of figuring out talent. Isn't that something scouts and a GM are supposed to do in the NFL? It is what is it. With the existing system, I don't see any coach figuring this team out.
"...why are you asking the fans..... who do you have that can replace Lewis? Duh, what is this, an episode of survivor or something? Didn't the team have another alternative in case of hiring Lewis? How the hell do the other teams go out and find coaches that get the job done? Did the fans pick Lewis the last time? We're football fans are we really supposed to tell Mike Brown who to hire?"
I'm sure you agree that "other teams" aren't the Bengals. I'm giving those that demand Lewis to be fired an opportunity to explain what happens after that. It's easy to demand someone's head. It's difficult to suggest after that. But wouldn't it be as hypocritical to suggest that fans appeal to his firing while asking six questions why the fans should project the future after Lewis because it's not our jobs? Neither is firing Lewis.
"Didn't the team have another alternative in case of hiring Lewis?"
Yes, a guy named Mike Mularkey. Who left after two seasons with a 14-18 record. That was Mike Brown's choice before Katie stepped in for her support of Marvin Lewis. Another instance where Brown nearly hired a head coach that wouldn't work out.
"Note that I'm watching the Chicago and Minn game right now and the defense on each of these teams are smacking the crap each other. Sure the offenses are not that great but these team know the principal rule of defense wins football games. Here we have the highly touted defensive genius who led Baltimore to the Super Bowl and the defensive ranking has fallen into the toliet over the last 3 years."
No doubt about the Bengals defense. And no doubt that good defense is critical to a team's success. However... What? Chicago's 29th ranked defense gives them a 5-9 record. Of the nine losses by the Bears, five were within one possession... oh if I only had an offense. Minnesota's defense is ranked 20th. Defenses always look spectacular when the opposing offenses struggle -- we're talking Kyle Orton and Brooks Bollinger at one point in the game. We look spectacular against the Ravens twice. Minnesota is on a five game winning streak because their offense has vastly improved moving into the top-11.
An interesting note: The top two seeded teams in each conference make up the top four offenses in the league.
But as long as our defense struggles to keep guys like Matt Toeina, sits idley while Thurman waits for his 32-game suspension to expire, the recovery of a broken neck and the majority of injury pumping into this team the past two seasons, what do you expect? What coach would succeed in this system?
"Why let Henry get any preseason snaps at all if he isn't going to be eligible to play until the 9th game of the season?"
Again, what would you expect? Chad and T.J. aren't going to play much. Starters rarely do. Anyway, both Antonio Chatman and Glenn Holt missed the entire preseason.
| Players | #1 | #2 | #3 | #4 |
| Glenn Holt | OUT | OUT | OUT | OUT |
| Antonio Chatman | OUT | OUT | OUT | OUT |
| Tab Perry | OUT | |||
| Bennie Brazell | OUT | OUT |
That would leave the starters, Skyler Green and Jesse Holley to play each game. It was a matter of personnel. Why would they sign someone else when Holt, Chatman and Perry were expected to return around the start of the season? Simply to not play Henry? Even so, Henry wouldn't get that kind of work returning by the ninth week -- when teams tone down their practices.
by Kirkendall on
Dec 18, 2007 11:08 AM EST
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Not just Mularkey
We can attract top-level coaches. We just haven't hired them.
by NY Bengal on
Dec 18, 2007 11:47 AM EST
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Re: Re:
Tap Perry getting hurt but didn't Holt join the team late preseason or after the start of the season. Also, weren't there other possible WR in preseason and if Henry were to be out for 8 games why not keep Washington?
You can't honesty believe that Marvin has done the best that he can with this team. His cutting Hartwell and Frazer are pretty suspicious plus he cut 2 possible LBs that could have helped the team. Just looking at the Matt Toeania episode gives indication that he has made bad decisions regarding personnel. He made the statement that Toeania hadn't developed enough to dent the line up. Hey, maybe the Bears have a loosing record but I think their DL can hold it's own with any team.
Aside from the injuries your statements on Holly and Green makes no sense. If the others were injured and Henry couldn't play then one would expect that you would give Green and Holly all the snaps they can get. Either that or you go get a WR that can contribute.
Also, regardless of records, were Minn and Chicago smacking each other yes or no?
What did you say that Toeania did in last nights game? Did he hit anyone?
by davidincincinnati on
Dec 18, 2007 11:03 PM EST
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RE
"Also, regardless of records, were Minn and Chicago smacking each other yes or no?"
Sure. With your line of thinking, then against the Titans and Ravens, the Bengals defense is GREAT! At the same time, the Vikings 32nd ranked pass defense and the Bears 26th ranked pass defense is worst than the Bengals 24th pass defense. And the 25th ranked Bears rush defense is worse than the Bengals 24th ranked rush defense. Except the Vikings leading rush defense, neither team is ranked higher than the Bengals defense against either pass or rush defense. If you're talking simply about that game, then yea, I agree 100%. But you made an association saying these defenses were good and that good defenses are critical to winning games (which you're right). The thing is, neither defense is as great that requires that statement to become true.
"You can't honesty believe that Marvin has done the best that he can with this team."
I don't. I've never said that. I've criticized him plenty of times in the past four years. Do I make excuses for him? I'll give you that much. But you honestly believe, after we all agree that the underlining issues being the owner, that any head coach will come in here and "fix" things? I thought Marty S. But do you believe he'll actually come to this team? Do you believe a personality like that would mix well with Mike Brown? I think it would be great, but I know this team enough to know that that isn't a likely scenario. It's one thing to demand change -- hey, I'm on board with that. It's another to realize that change won't happen this offseason. I'm just going to categorize this as agree to disagree because I'm starting to think no matter what head coach we have, nothing will significantly change.
"If the others were injured and Henry couldn't play then one would expect that you would give Green and Holly all the snaps they can get."
Henry had 14 receptions all preseason. Of the 252 total offensive plays in the preseason, Henry contributed for a whopping 5%. It wasn't like he dominated everyone else's playing time. Look, at some point, the question should be why neither receiver, knowing that we'd be needing a #3 WR for the first half of the season, didn't rise above the others. Allowing the free pass for guys that didn't win their opportunities while directing every bit of frustration towards the head coach's personnel decisions is a bit of reach on this particular argument.
Green wasn't that good. If he wasn't running the wrong routes, he was dropping passes. Furthermore, it's pretty apparent that this team's offense intended to only be a two-contribution receiver offense. Was that because Palmer got too comfortable with T.J. and Chad? Is it the system? Or is it that the trust with the personnel wasn't that great? I honestly don't know. Not sure about Holley though. Didn't get to see him much.
"Aside from the injuries your statements on Holly and Green makes no sense."
Sure it does. You just choose not to appreciate it. With injuries taking down the mid-level WRs that we expected to work the #3, #4 and #5 spots on the depth chart, neither Green nor Holly, who did have significant playing time after the starters sat early in the game, neither rose up and climbed the depth chart. You could blame Doug Johnson if you want. I wouldn't mind. ;)
Now, Green is on the team's practice squad. But I'm not sure where Hartwell and Holley are. Which team are they playing for? Even when the Bengals were hurt at linebacker and unstable, they still didn't bring Hartwell back. Ego? Perhaps. But I believe it says something when they aren't out of work like they are.
"Either that or you go get a WR that can contribute."
...specifically, who?
by Kirkendall on
Dec 19, 2007 9:48 AM EST
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David sure is bitter...
Nothing wrong with Marvin Lewis, he is not the problem. They need better scouts and drafts. That should be the owners area, but of course we don't have one that is pro-active.
And I think Josh does plenty of his own homework, keep up the good work!
by Sloppygolf on Dec 18, 2007 7:52 AM EST 0 recs
Re: Bitter....not me!
I think that in many cases Marvin blows smoke on the issues and he routinely......well in the last couple of seasons has made mistakes that have impacted the team.
Also, I didn't hear tons of comments about needing a GM or needing scouts until this year. If Marvin is such a blessing then why are these comments surfacing now?
Also, Josh does okay, but he is pro-Marvin and is that good journalism?
by davidincincinnati on
Dec 18, 2007 11:06 PM EST
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RE
Two things. Your first mistake is misunderstanding exactly what a blogger is. We're not journalists. In fact, we're MSM's worst nightmare. We never claimed to be journalists. We're simply fans, like you, that have an opinion, like you, that expresses it.
Secondly, just because I don't go crazy demanding action, doesn't mean I'm for or against Marvin. I haven't said one way or the other. Like you said, why should the fans have an opinion one way or another? It's not like we're the one's firing/hiring... right?
by Kirkendall on
Dec 19, 2007 9:26 AM EST
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Marty Schottenheimer, maybe?
Give him a chance? He has had it. And we get what appears to be - if we are lucky - a 7-9 team and weeks of excuses.
Injuries do not explain away the losses we have had this year: Exhibit A: SF, B:Chiefs, C: Bills.
Admittedly, the other six loses were close games, but good teams win close games. We are not a good team.
Thus, the question is not who is better than Marvin. We have seen what he can do. The question is who is not getting a shot at the job because we do not have the intestinal fortitude to say good-bye to Marvin Lewis. Rather we accept mediocrity and cry about suspended/injured linebackers.
I will not apologize for having higher expectations. 5 seasons and one playoff appearance does not cut it. It is time to move on.
by NY Bengal on Dec 18, 2007 11:45 AM EST 0 recs
Re: Schottenhimer Maybe.
Maybe a 7-9 team with tons of excuses in the offseason. When the players on the team make the statement that they're not a good team, which has occurred within the last 3 weeks, then it speaks volumes about the team mental outlook and the coaches leadership. If a team thinks that it's not a good team then what motivation is there for them to play?
You make excellent exhibits of losses that should not have happened. A couple more exhibits are when is the last time that you had a team get a safety on the opposing team but still lose a game? When is the last time that you've seen a team block a punt and return it for a touchdown and lose the lead within 2 minutes of the score. These are things that should not happen. I think that the head coach has to get the blame for these things.
I agree with your point about mediocrity. Too many accept this and still rally and say wait until next year. Where are the dynamics of the fans that should say enough is enough, get someone in here that is going to straighten the mess out.
by davidincincinnati on
Dec 18, 2007 11:17 PM EST
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Stop Taking Crazy Pills!
If we give up on Marvin, he'll inevitably go to another team and win and we'll be stuck with untested losers like Russ Grimm, Ron Rivera, and Rex Ryan. I hate saying this as much as the next guy but "patience, my friends, patience." If this season proves anything, parity is alive and well from year to year in the NFL. Look at Cleveland (destined for 6-10 next year when they get a real schedule) vying for the playoffs and last years Superbowl Runner Up in last place in the NFC North. The Bengals have relatively high cap room and the ability to get rid of busts like Justin Smith and Dexter "Wait, I was supposed to 'cover' that guy?" Jackson. A good draft, a few players get healthy, Hall and Joseph get another year of experience, I think the Bengals have something to play with next year.
Seriously, do you really think that there is a proven winner - as in Super Bowl winner - out there that would A. take the job next year, and B. do better than Lewis facing the Bengals this season? I would rather jump off a building than have Bill Cowher and the Tuna is done. Are we going to have to resort to George Seifurt? I refuse to submit the team to "Blame on the Bossonova" jokes for his tenure.
by TarZander on Dec 18, 2007 9:02 PM EST 0 recs
Re: Stop Taking Crazy Pills.
I hate to keep dwelling on it, but I think that Marvin's performance in Baltimore should be considered here. Point blank is that it may have been luck or it may have been that the players were already there and he just managed them thru a superbowl.
Fact is if that performance would have been the telling point then why is it that he was available for Cincy. I mean if the owners are lame then how did they manage to get this great coach that's a genius and no one else wanted him? What, did we out bid everyone else to get him?
I can't say that I care for the attitude of the team having an easy schedule and therefore will rebound with the lighter schedule and get into the playoffs. See what NE is doing this year. I want to root for a team that has the hardest schedule and is willing to knock heads with the best in order to win it all. Don't you?
by davidincincinnati on Dec 18, 2007 11:24 PM EST 0 recs
Ummm - I didn't exactly say that...
As for your point on Baltimore - I don't think that the Ravens had the "all star players" there that carried the team. It was a combination of scheme, players willing to do their job rather than improvise outside the system (Tony "Fat, Steaming Pile of Dog Crap" Siragusa comes to mind), a few good players, and attitude (brought by Ray "I Din't see nothin' even though my clothes are covered in blood" Lewis. Bottom Line: Marvin brought a lot to that defense, and laid the groundwork for Buddy Ryan Jr. (whatever the fat tub's name is) to do well - BTW, he ain't doing so hot this year.
Finally, my point about parity was not meant to hope for an easy schedule next year to luck into the playoffs. Rather, a few breaks, players being healthy, etc. can turn a bad season into a good one. Sometimes adversity can forge the kind of team that wins even with a hard schedule -- both New England AND Indianapolis went through this phase. Things can change immensely from year to year - a mediocre year this year might very well develop the nucleus of a great team next year..
The Browns example was really an editorial comment more than anything else. I brought up the Browns because, all said, they aren't that good. I think they won't have a winning record next season. Luck - and some clutch plays - have really given them a lot of momentum and confidence. Their defense will still blow and Jamal Lewis - if he doesn't make any more drug deals - will be one year older and another year slower. "Bid D" Anderson is likely to fizzle - he's playing way out of his league right now. My point, I'd rather take the Bengals situation for the future (with Palmer, Chad, TJ etc.) over the Browns inevitably short playoff appearance this season.
by TarZander on Dec 19, 2007 7:57 PM EST 0 recs
Uhmmm, TarZander
I have nothing wrong with those that favor Marvin because of the believed turn around and pinnacle reached in 2005. The way I see it though is that I think that the fans should be hungry for more and my belief is that Marvin is a great organizer but not a great coach. Follow that up with the kind of personalities that the assistant coaches have and it looks like putty.
I think all of that leads to a lack of drive by the players on the team. Perhaps they need a coach who can fire them up and give them some passion. I don't see that coming for Marvin.
I also disagree with you on the prospects of the team next year if you believe that injuries is solely the answer to the poor play this year. From where I sit I see a team that imploded during that playoff game in 2005. After that I see a team that fell apart at the end of 2006 and now I see a team that has had injuries but has gone through the motions for this season. A playoff caliber team, regardless of injuries, would have found a way to beat Cleveland, Seattle, KC, Arizona, and the 49ers.
I know it's old stuff that I'm talking about and I not really ragging on your post but BTW where is Kirkendall's response.<lol> I guess I'm just too passionate about how I think they should be playing and knowing that there are only 2 games left......it's a drag watching poor football being played.
I guess we'll have to enjoy what little there is left to watch.
by davidincincinnati on
Dec 20, 2007 7:01 PM EST
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