Bengals and Smith are far apart; Bengals latest offer is really only $28 million with $33 million max
by Josh Kirkendall on Aug 19, 2009 10:10 AM EDT
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PrintThere's reports surfacing that the Bengals and Alvin Keels camp are far apart in their negotiations for the first round pick, Andre Smith. Not that we didn't already know that. But this is my obligatory "Where in the World is Andre Smith" post. Joe Reedy writes "the Bengals last offer to Smith was five years at the base at $28 million and a maximum of $33 million" which, Reedy observes as less than last year's first round pick Vernon Gholston and lower than this year's seventh-round pick Darrius Heyward-Bey. It's almost like the Bengals are sabotaging negotiations because they really didn't expect Smith to sign, did they? What agent in the world would agree to the Bengals offer?
Gregg Rosenthal wrote yesterday, that NFL Network's Steve Wyche reported, that negotiations are "reportedly $5-$10 million apart."
The likelihood that Smith misses at least the first regular season game grows everyday he's away from the team. Just yesterday, head coach Marvin Lewis hinted that once Smith signs, the team will look at where he fits best. A far cry from saying earlier that he'll "get every opportunity to start at right tackle." Makes you wonder if Collins is the unannounced starting right tackle, provided he keeps performing through the remaining preseason.
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Absolutely ridiculous.
There are simply no words to express the magnitude of the fail that sits in the owner’s box at Paul Brown Stadium. It’s virtually beyond comprehension.
Bengals offer to Smith
If Sanchez (#5) was signed at USD28M guaranteed and Heyward Bez (#7) was signed at USD23.5M guaranteed, I believe USD25M guaranteed offer to Smith (#6) is very reasonable. I don’t understand why this USD28M offer (how much is guaranteed) and maximum of USD33M, could be worse than the USD25M guaranteed deal, unless the player is injured?
Rookie contracts are stacked one way against teams. How many games can each rookie guarantee the team that he plays for in the next 5 years? I believe the guaranteed part of the contract should only kick in if players play/dress for a minimum of 5 regular season games (30%) per season (or 25 games for 5 years).
Of course ...
… it’s a reasonable offer. For once in, hmmm, well, maybe forever, I’m with Mikey B. on this one. Best case scenario: AC stays healthy and has a breakout year … while “Dairy Queen” Smith feeds his piehole and Keels Twitters his BS all season. Stay firm, Mickey.
Last year we did not have global financial crisis. Interest rates go up and down. So where does it say that this year’s offer to #6 must be more than last year’s offer to #6.
I do not always agree with Mike Brown but you know how much money was paid to Jeremy Irons and how many games did he play as a first round pick? That is why guaranteed money should only be triggered when a minimum number of games have been played by rookies. I know we cannot predict injuries but there are enough rookie flops.
No Chad Johnson Hatred Remarks??
;-)
Just kidding, man…I had to do it.
by JohnCockToastin on Aug 19, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
same old same old
The Bengals are the NFL version of Groundhog Day.Lose.Draft high.Sign the guy late. Waste the first year and he never develops to his potential.As the draft approached did management give any thought to the possiblity that this would occur again ?? If they don’t want to pay the $$$$ then trade down pick up additional picks.It seems to work for NE.This past year the Patriots didn’t have a first round pick but had a bunch of #2s. All were signed before camp opened. Why not copy what successful franchises do if you can’t be creative enought to come up with your own ideas.Why do I follow this team ?
Oh I wanted them to trade down too. But I knew that it wasn’t likely. Everybody and their brother kept talking about how there weren’t any (or at least enough) “major” trade candidates available to make it work. I would love for them to have tried harder to find a way, but they didn’t/couldn’t/wouldn’t/whatever so oh well.
I also would have fully supported them had they simply refused to submit a pick. Somebody has to put their foot down on the rookie bull crap and if Mikey’s the only one with enough guts to even consider this weak means of doing so well better than nothing. I just wish he’d had the balls to refuse to submit a pick. It would have been far more effective.
The only thing that might theoretically be even more effective would be to continue this game until the regular season, then tell Alvin that after each game their offer comes down by 2 million a week. If it gets to zero Smith can take his chances in next year’s draft. Given who he’d be going up against next year plus the fact he’s had a year off plus the fact that the Bengals hold his rights still and thus he can’t work out for any other team until after the draft he won’t get even CLOSE to what they are offering now, much less what Alvin is asking. I wouldn’t be surprised for the remaining negotiations to take about 15 minutes.
Stupidity
People we really need to hire a gm i mean come on look at this heyward bay got like 25 million guranteed. The bengals are only offering Smith 25 to 33 max bay got offered 44 and he was picked after Smith. Stupidity I tell you stupidity. It’s almost like they’re trying not to sign him.
Smith
While I definitely believe that we need a GM, and I think we should go ahead and get this deal done now that it is completely slotted, another part of me says “F Smith”. He is being offered enough money coming out of college for everyone who has responded so far to retire today. Just sign the deal and do your job. You are hurting an entire city and team by whining about not getting enough millions to feed yoour fat @$$. If you don’t feel that $28 million is enough, get a real job.
So you are just willing to say...
“Damn the scale and what’s fair for market value” just to make a point to Smith? Meaning EVERY other team in the NFL Draft is wrong and Mike Brown’s strategy is correct? Understand something, the Bengals are the ONLY team that’s offering less to their pick than player picked after.
In fact, the Bengals are offering less than last year’s number six. How on earth is Smith in the wrong here? Using the great-in-theory/pie-in-the-sky thinking of “Oh, it’s enough money” is what’s hurting this team to begin with. There is a scale every other team who drafted is paying attention to.
Except the Bengals.
This makes sense to you?
Your first sentence referred to Mike Brown
And then the rest of your paragraph dumped on Smith. Not sure what the main message was, all things considered.
what I meant was.
1. that both sides are wrong,
2. that first round picks are absurdly overpaid.
definition of absurd: Adj. 1. absurd – inconsistent with reason or logic or common sense
3. that he is hurting himself by not practicing, he will also be more likely to be injured because of missed practice time and being out of shape, which will hurt his second contract.
4. that he is hurting his team by sitting out, losing the cohesion that the offensive line neds to succeed above any other position.
5. that he is hurting the city, because over the past 6 yers they have been the best pro sports team in Cncinnati,
my reply, I meant to say that obviously I do not say "Damn the scale and what’s fair for market value", but rather that I don’t think he is going to get anymore money by sitting out than he will by signing because there is no way he moves up in the draft next year.
If Smith is thinking that he will re-enter the draft if the Bengals don’t show him the money, will ANYONE look at him next year?
RE:
I say no. Not only did several teams likely red flag him for maturity issues, but then they ask themselves, why draft a guy that didn’t sign. If Smith waits until next year, he’ll sacrifice so much money that he’ll never make up again.
The Bengals have the upperhand in this. But I fault the Bengals. They are not adhering to the slotting system and the agent, who makes a percentage of what Smith makes, only wants Smith to get paid where he was slotted. Right, wrong, fair, against, for, whatever. That’s just the way it is. And the Bengals going below the 6th round pick from last year, and the 7th round pick this year, just doesn’t make sense.
And didn’t the whole, “well, we offered a lot of money we don’t know what the deal is” remark by Katie on Hard Knocks just knock all of you speechless?
Blogger at CincyJungle.com -- SB Nation Cincinnati Bengals blog.
by Josh Kirkendall on Aug 19, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh her comment was idiotic. But I also don’t care.
I think they are trying to simply avoid signing him. Either that or they truly are as stupid as they’ve appeared the last few years and the good that happened this year was just a blind squirrel finding a nut by sheer accident. But I also don’t care.
As I said, I didn’t really want them to sign him in the first place. Use the leverage, reduce their offer until it gets even more ridiculous and then just write him off and let him try his luck next year. If he goes before the 3rd round he’ll be VERY lucky, and no matter who was more right or more wrong (since they are both part both) he will be hurt badly.
Of course, if they announce that strategy they will be crucified in the media. But then, they are anyway, so why not actually be what they make you out to be?
Then why the hell even waste the pick?
They could’ve gotten Oher late in the first round if this was indeed part of the strategy. Also, if they are indeed doing anything resembling what you are suggesting, Roger Goodell should pull the franchise away from the Browns. Finally, your theory also means the Browns are willing to torpedo a player’s pro chances — not to mention their franchise quarterback’s health — just to make some pathetic point about rookie contracts.
Oh, and by not signing Smith, what leverage do they have exactly? I mean, besides making the franchise even less appealing to upcoming rookies and free agents?
Because they didn’t quite have the balls to simply refuse to submit a pick at all (like they should have). And after Goodell’s strong condemnation of the idea of the #1 overall trying it, they didn’t have the guts to deliberately let their time expire in hopes of getting out of the top 10 that way either (again as they should have).
I know you think they could have gotten Oher later. But once again you are wrong. They could not because they didn’t have a later pick, they had the #6 pick, and they had no choice but to use it. Unless, of course, they were willing to display more guts and chutzpah than I think even Mikey has by deliberately pissing off somebody who actually could do something to directly hurt them back (although not as much as you want him to do) they literally had NO CHOICE but to pick somebody at #6.
And as much of a tyrant as Goodell has appeared in many other areas, the ability to take away somebody’s franchise is not within his powers. And even if I was a Raiders fan I still wouldn’t want him to have that ability.
Oh and I’m not at all convinced they are trying to make a point about rookie contracts. I think this could be as much about revenge for The Great Agent Scam as anything else.
If they decline the pick in their spot
They continue to fall, right? If so, they could’ve taken Oher at anytime. Further, they could’ve traded the pick to someone who wanted Crabtree or — at that time — Sanchez. Remember, the Jets traded up too.
You’re acting like this course of action was the only one they could’ve taken, and that doesn’t make sense.
The Jets took Sanchez at 5. He was not available at 6, and therefore nobody would’ve traded up to get him; you’ve made that mistake in your argument several times now. Personally, I’d imagine that the ol’ cheapskate did everything in his power to trade out of the spot, or else some weird form of masochism drew him to Andre.
The Jets didn't trade up until Draft Day
During the time you could make deals, the move was available.
Yeah, sure. How many times in the last 5 years or so has any trade been announced BEFORE draft day?
There is a ton of predraft negotiation on them. But they’re all contingency based. And when draft day rolls around the Bengals may have six offers to trade up, but I’ll guarantee you either they are all based on Sanchez being available or they are pathetic jokes of offers like my option #1 below. And those aren’t options.
Because you aren’t thinking things through all the way. Yeah they should have had another option. In an ideal world there would be another option. But this is the real world, not the world that we’d like to have. Now had they had the guts to refuse to pick they would probably have fallen. And Goodell would have crucified them for trying it. And they knew it because the entire league had been warned in explicit terms that they were NOT to even THINK about doing that. Mikey didn’t have the guts to try to call Roger’s bluff (assuming that even was a bluff at all).
As Clue below points out, Sanchez was gone, Crabtree wasn’t considered worth trading up for, and there was a sheer GLUT of players all grading out more or less the same beyond him. There was nobody else to trade up FOR, and if there wasn’t a particular player one team just HAD to get then they aren’t going to trade up. (Personally I’m slightly surprised Denver didn’t want to trade up for B.J. Raji because their new 3-4 is going nowhere until they get a real NT, but apparently they didn’t know that. And given the rest of their fiascoes I wouldn’t be surprised to find out they honestly believed they could make do with what they have.) Now I would actually have supported Mikey if he’d given away the #1 and, say, a #4 or some-such to get out of the top ten, but he probably wasn’t interested in the sheer crucifixion he’d endure in the media for doing so.
Look, you are Mike Brown. Yeah I know, you’re smarter and probably better looking, but you’re Mike Brown for a few minutes. It’s draft time 2009 and you are on the clock in the first round. The Jets have just traded up to get the VERY LAST player in the entire first round who’s considered “trade bait”. You have three choices. 1) Make an utterly ridiculous offer to actually pay somebody else to let you trade down and LOSE value on your pick simply to save money. As much of a cheapskate as you are, this is not an option because of the media crucifixion you’d endure. 2) Piss Goodell off and maybe get fined or otherwise massively punished in some significantly undesirable fashion. Again you’re a cheapskate, this isn’t an option. 3) Make a pick and then hope you can find some way to sign him without breaking the bank.
And that’s it. There is no option 4.
They really didn’t have a choice. That they didn’t have a choice is a pathetic commentary on how screwed up the entire draft process has become because of the insane salaries of first round draft picks, but they really did not have a choice.
The secret strategy...
1. Continue to lowball him. If Keels gets desparate, he may take a lowball offer anyway, which would be fine.
2. AC will be fine. In fact, why not swap AC and Whit? I like the idea of Whit at RT and AC at LT.
3. If he never signs (that would be apparent before end of season) — then use the money that would have gone toward Smith to do some other good work: re-sign Henry, extend Hall or perhaps Joseph, etc. Lock up some of the proven players and stay under the cap.
(I know, next year may be uncapped …. but I would bet that eventually the cap will be back if not in 2010.)
by California Bengal Fan on Aug 19, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Football ain't the real world
so as much as I believe the money being doled out for first round picks is obscene, it’s the system that the football world has established. The Bengals knew what the system was. They had the #6 pick overall, they needed a tackle, they chose Andre Smith. The slot has been established-so sign him. The only quibling should be based on performance escalators and length of the contract.. Mike Brown might be 100% right and the other owners all wrong when it comes to the business side of football (I doubt it), but I get tired of him making a stand for principal at the expense of this team winning games.
Yes. The rookie pay scale is out of control. But, the Bengals can’t do any thing about it. If they want to take a stand they need to do it with the CBA negotiations next year. They still have to suck it up and sign Smith and move on. If they don’t like paying top 10 picks, don’t suck anymore and they won’t have to worry about it.
blatant, harsh, rude...
i like it
well said!
"Life's a bi*ch but god forbid the bi*ch divorce me"- Nas
"They ask me what I'm writin' for; I'm writin' to show you what we fightin' for"- Talib Kweli
by Davone_Is_BessT on Aug 20, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
actually, it appears the bengals are doing something about it. the longer the holdout, the less leverage smith has (assuming nobody important on the line gets hurt), and the less money the bengals can get away with paying him. in this economy, you really can’t consider it reasonable to have 22% inflation on the cost of services, which i believe is what dhb got at 7 and keels wants for andre. paying less than last year actually makes sense, given the market conditions and the fact that prices in other sectors of the country have either remained steady or decreased (e.g., the housing market – just because you paid $300,000 for the house 2 years ago doesn’t mean you’re going to get even close to that now), and considering the trend this year among nfl teams of not raising ticket prices, meaning that as a percentage of their total revenue, they’ll be spending even more on the rookies this year, since there’s still inflation in pay, but revenues will remain the same, or more likely decrease. as a football man, i hate mike brown, but as a business man, he’s doing the right thing here.
I'm willing to bet
Keels made the call. He knows he can’t wait out MB and wants to try to get just a little of a concession so he can save face. If I were Brown I would offer him a cookie and get the deal done. If Keels demands 2 cookies and a glass of milk send him packing and don’t validate his parking pass.
" My enemy said "Love your enemy". I obeyed and loved myself." Gibran
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