Understanding the NFL slotting system is a critical component to understanding Andre Smith's holdout
by Josh Kirkendall on Aug 21, 2009 12:12 AM EDT
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PrintI need your help. Because honestly, I don't understand. Perhaps it's just lacking the common sense needed to understand the issue. We've probably spoken about the Andre Smith holdout more than any specific topic during Training Camp. Two sides are emerging. You have those that just want Smith in camp. They don't care about the specific details. But they blame Smith. Some calling him greedy, immature, while suggesting he's possibly wrecking the first year of his NFL career -- and there might be truth to that, I admit.
The truth of the matter is that everyone wants Smith in camp. That isn't the debate. The issue is who everyone wants to blame; or in more subtle terms, understanding the issue. Some take the higher road and shout to the heavens, "I don't care. Just get into camp." I'm standing there with you brother. But you have to also acknowledge that the complexity of the issue is saturated with an egotism that's far out of our hands.
In fact, I understand both sides of the issue. For Smith, he is risking his first season in the NFL. The Bengals' position is eerily similar to our own when discussing the ridiculous yearly increases of NFL rookie contracts. The Bengals don't want to pay it. End of statement.
The problem here is, the Bengals don't have a choice. Alvin Keels has made his position as clearly as can be heard. He wants his client to get paid more than the sixth pick from last year and a little more than the seventh pick this year. Keels didn't just make up this process. It wasn't a manipulative ploy to get his client more money. It's generally the way it works. The guy drafted ahead of someone else, gets a little more money. And that guy gets a little more money than the draft pick selected in the same slot got the year before. This isn't Keels' master plan. He's following the same system that everyone else has followed.
Wide receiver Michael Crabtree is looking to be paid as the highest wide receiver in the draft; he won't settle on being paid less than Darrius Heyward-Bey. Crabtree believed that since he was a top-five pick, he should be paid like it. This is far from the issue in Cincinnati. Clearly Crabtree's egotism is causing the holdout. Smith wants to be paid where he's slotted. In that article, Peter King writes:
The NFL has a slotting system that is ever-so-slightly malleable, where a player who gets drafted one spot lower than another player occasionally gets a smidgeon of a better deal. And sometimes a quarterback gets an above-market deal. But position players and non-quarterback skill players are slotted, and despite the efforts of agents to break the slotting system when picked lower than the agent or player thinks he should be picked, the league mostly holds firm.
So the question is, what are Keels and Smith doing that's wrong? What are they doing that any other agent/player combination wouldn't do? As Keels was overheard saying during Hard Knocks, he just wants what's fair. Katie Blackburn responds that they want to pay him in line with the other first round picks. The issue here is, paying Smith what Keels is asking would be in line to what the other first round picks are being paid, due to the slotting system described by King.
The Cincinnati Enquirer's Paul Daugherty completely ignores this, casting it as a side item in his conclusion.
Keels wants his guy at No. 6 to make more than Heyward-Bey, drafted No. 7 by Oakland. Blackburn says the Raiders decidedly overpaid Bey, a wideout whose best talent is running fast. If you look at the numbers, the Raiders deal isn’t crazy, just mildly strange. Keels’ suggestion is fair, but he sounds like he’s begging. At the negotiating table, The Family will salt him and eat him for lunch.
Heyward-Bey's deal isn't just crazy, it's ridiculous. The increase over the slot the previous year was over 20%. This is staggering. But it doesn't matter. The NFL slotting system is an important aspect for this discussion.; in fact, it is the primary issue. It mustn't just be acknowledged, but it needs to be understood if you're going to seriously address the discussion.
And this is the issue, I think that's mostly misunderstood. The finances and politics of negotiations are largely annoyances by fans and media. And that's fine. It is boring and frustrating to read about the negotiations of millions of dollars. However, while it might be annoying, it's critical. And in my opinion, the Bengals going against the slotting system that's established in the NFL is the primary cause for Smith's holdout.
If you want to argue that the slotting system is ridiculous, I firmly and full-heartedly agree. However, the reality is that it does exist. And it's why Smith remains in Alabama and we rub our temples watching the conclusion of the second episode of Hard Knocks.
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Only the Bengals can make Alvin Keels look like the good guys…
This is pathetic. From all the reports I have read, most people agree that the Bengals just don’t get it. It’s not Andre Smith or his agent’s greed that are blocking the deal. It’s the Bengals trying to be cheap. To be honest, I’m not surprised. How many times have our 1st round pick hold out till after pre-season or training camp? A lot of them….
This needs to change.
I'm so confused
it seems only natural in a sense that the 6th overall pick would get paid more than the 7th overall pick. The “slotting system” is the only part of our draft salaries that I would keep.
If you alternatively mean that there should be a hard slotting system with a lot of control over player contracts, or that there should be some overall rookie salary cap, that makes a lot of sense.
The thing is, money=status. I think the baseball draft is stupid without a slotting system because top talents fall to teams that are willing to pay for them rather than getting drafted early. If Andre Smith is the 6th best rookie, he should get the 6th best contract.
True. But is he the 6th best rookie? Or is he merely one of the top 32 rookies and the one that the sixth worst team needed more than they needed the actual 6th best rookie?
nice job, kirkendall. i posted the following earlier tonight, but about 5 or 6 posts down. since it’s relevant to this topic, i’ll re-type:
i don’t understand how blackburn has kept the focus on heyward-bey (oh, those crazy raiders!), when the eugene monroe contract seems to totally decimate the bengals’ argument. daugherty, “hard knocks” and pretty much everyone else in the media have latched on to the heyward-bey talking point even though monroe, another offensive tackle, signed his deal for almost identical terms to H-B, and one pick later!
check out all the rookie contracts at this link:
4. Aaron Curry LB Seattle Signed 6 years, $60 million ($34M guaranteed)
5. Mark Sanchez QB N.Y. Jets Signed 5 years, $60 million ($28M guaranteed)
6. Andre Smith OT Cincinnati Unsigned
7. Darrius Heyward-Bey WR Oakland Signed 5 years, $38.25 million ($23.5M guaranteed)
8. Eugene Monroe OT Jacksonville Signed 5 years, $35.4 million ($19.2M guaranteed)
9. B.J. Raji DT Green Bay Signed 5 years, $28.5 million ($18M guaranteed)
if the reports are correct, then cincy’s offer sheet is basically equivalent to that of 9th-pick BJ raji’s.
so..
DESPITE (1) the two guys just before smith making more than double that money, and..
DESPITE (2) an OT taken two spots after smith making markedly more, and..
DESPITE (3) the player picked in the same position one year earlier making markedly more..
we get to hear blackburn talk about how keels’ demands are not in line with the rest of the first round, save for heyward-bey.
it’s total BS. if you really look at the contracts, heyward-bey’s isn’t even the ridiculous one. and i feel bad for andre smith, who has been maligned throughout the draft process for his work ethic and his professionalism. this isn’t an andre smith problem. if he had been drafted by any other team, he’d be playing a preseason game this week. what happens to smith’s image now? fat, greedy athlete. plus—traditional logic—his career might suffer in the long run after missing so much time.
way to go, bengals. way to handle a supposedly prized asset.
Good post
Monroe’s deal has to be considered. My guess is the Browns are not looking at anyone else’s deals and are just offering what they think a sixth pick should be worth. I’m sure by now a $40 million deal with $25 guaranteed would get signed. Of course, the Bengals do have the upper hand. If Smith really wants to play football in the NFL, he has no choice. It’s sad and I do feel bad for the kid that the team he is most likely going to play for over the next five years is jerking him around like this.
by Cedric Benson Boat Party on Aug 21, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
in general i agree that the bengals have the upper hand. but both sides would look very bad if a deal doesn’t get done. the brown family doesn’t need any more “the bengals are the cheapest franchise in the NFL” headlines. if there comes a time when smith is the last remaining holdout, the $$ details are going to start coming out nationally, and the bengals’ hands might be forced a little.
by Natty Bumppo on Aug 21, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
RE: smith's perception
I haven’t gotten any hint that Smith is considered a fat greedy athlete. I don’t even hear much about it outside Bengals sites. I think the perception is againt mike brown.
Either way, Smith is running the risk of never playing in the NFL. I think Brown has him by the shorthairs on that.
by mskiles314 on Aug 21, 2009 12:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
locally you’re probably correct, but ESPN only has room for a few talking points and the talking points re: smith were how lazy and uncommitted he was in preparing for his draft workouts. “hard knocks” certainly doesn’t get into the details. i think the casual fan makes assumptions.
by Natty Bumppo on Aug 21, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Pay the man
Mike Brown is going to have to budge. Alvin and Smith know that the Bengals are short on depth at O-line. They know how bad they need him. Mike Brown and Fam are just being cheapskates as usual. They can’t even pay to renovate their own damn stadium for crying out loud! If Andre isn’t signed by the Broncos game then there will be a lot of angry fans in the stands. This is a joke!
What are the risks for each side?
If smith doesn’t sign at all he goes back into the draft next year? Where would he be drafted at? He doesn’t look like the type of guy that will adhere to a training regimen, will he be 1st, 3rd, 7th, or an undrafted FA? He could loose big time.
For the Bengals they loose depth at OT and a first round pick. Do they get a compensation pick? Every game the OL shows competence, Smith’s value declines to the Bengals.
Maybe they will learn to be a little aggressive in negotiations instead of waiting to the last.
He doesn’t look like the type of guy that will adhere to a training regimen
and people disagreed with me when i said there is a growing perception against smith?
by Natty Bumppo on Aug 21, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The Bengals Gamble
Every year (except for Carson) the Bengals seem to be one of the last teams to sign their picks. They do this because of the slotting system. They are so afraid they are going to over pay they wait for all the picks around them to sign and they then offer an appropriate amount.
The fact that everyone is complaining about the DHB deal is mute. There was always the possibility that this would happen, if the Bengals don’t want to be slotted into paying more than they want then perhaps they should be a little more proactive and help set the system by signing their picks sooner. It is a gamble either way and this year they lost.
The system is there
The Bengals have to learn how to deal with the system. And they haven’t. Forget DHB, they want to pay Smith less than LAST year’s No. 6 pick. And it’s hilarious that they don’t even want to pay Smith equal to Eugene Monroe is getting, who is another OL at No. 8.
If Mikey Boy wants to cheap out, then the team should have traded down on draft day.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
Look at his past
I think you guys are overlooking the fact that Andre has made a complete idiot of himself ever since the combine. Also the contract Sanchez got deserves to be higher. QB,WR,RB, these are skill positions and deserve a higher salary than a RT. Sorry guys Katie’s in the right here, Andre is worthless for the 1st half of the season anyways. At the end of the day the Bengals hold all the cards.
This is the risk you take when you wait to sign your pick
The Bengals waited until the picks in front and behind him were signed, creating the slot……and when DHB blew the slot out of the water, the Bengals got screwed.
Conversely, Smith and his agent took the same risk, waiting for the picks in front and behind him to sign and create the slot…..and won.
Moral of the story is, the Bengals should have been more proactive after the draft to try to sign him. Waiting has cost them $5-$10 million.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Did they? What happens if the Bengals just walk away? Then Keels and Smith lost BIG TIME. If this ends up a complete wasted pick then Andre will be lucky if he gets drafted before the 4th round next year. And then he will really have lost out on the money side.
Keels probably saw DHBs contract and went “cha-ching”. Well he counted his chickens before they hatched. And unfortunately, no matter how idiotic they may seem or even actually be, the Bengals are just as stubborn as he. At this point if he manages to get his guy signed at all it will be a minor miracle. And if he doesn’t at least come down some he won’t, in which case he will end up screwing his client out of millions of dollars when he falls to the late 3rd round next year (if he gets drafted again at all).
honestly at this point it has nothing to do with DHB’s contract. look at the other contracts in the first round. the bengals are low-balling plain and simple. if i were keels, i would go on the offensive and make the negotiations as public as possible.
by Natty Bumppo on Aug 21, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
“And that guy gets a little more money than the draft pick selected in the same slot got the year before”
“Heyward-Bey’s deal isn’t just crazy, it’s ridiculous. The increase over the slot the previous year was over 20%”
you contradicted yourself with these two sentences. dhb didn’t just get “a little more money,” he got a 20% increase. i understand the arguments of the bengals history of cheapness, but i just fail to see how anyone can rationalize 20% inflation in this economy, especially since you can almost guarantee that no nfl team will see a 20% increase in revenue this year. in fact, i expect a lot of teams will see a decrease in revenue, based on ticket prices remaining the same and fans just not buying as much stuff because they don’t have the money to do so; therefore, it is actually reasonable to ask for a decrease in the pay of the draft pick, since it’s in line with what’s happening elsewhere in the country (as i stated in a previous post, just because your house cost $300,000 two years ago doesn’t mean it’s reasonable for you to expect that price for it now, and if you do, you’ll most likely be sitting on it for a while).
although, to be honest, if we truly needed andre in there right now, i’d be clamoring for katie to quit whining and sign him as well. since at this point he seems to be a luxury, i say let him sit and save the 5-10 million that you’ll save by making him sweat until the season.
Do you realy think the Bengals would spend the money they would save elsewhere? Definitely not this year.
The market has been established for this year-the Bengals need to get with the program or just confirm to all their fans that they can’t or don’t feel the urgency to field a winning team. As some in this post say that the Bengals don’t think highly of Andre Smith then they are just plain stupid for drafting him.
Know how to increase your revenue by 20% in today's economy?
Go 101-187-1 over the past 18 years, decide you’re going to win, draft the best players, sign them on time, sign the best free agents, and win the damn Superbowl.
Betcha that’d hike revenues.
by Craig Conrad on Aug 21, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
well, of course that’d boost revenues, but as a pragmatic bengals fan, can you really consider that to be in the realm of reasonable possibility?
by Raging Clue on Aug 22, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
RE:
“you contradicted yourself with these two sentences”
No. They are referring to different things. One is specifically talking about DHB’s deal, while the other is generically describing how the slotting system works. Very different.
Blogger at CincyJungle.com -- SB Nation Cincinnati Bengals blog.
by Josh Kirkendall on Aug 21, 2009 11:19 AM EDT reply actions
I'm sure Katie is willing to pay "a little more money than the draft pick selected in the same slot the year before"
"And that guy gets a little more money than the draft pick selected in the same slot got the year before"
What do you define as “a little more money?” Unless it includes 20% increases, there is definitely a contradiction between your generic description above and this year’s 1st round contracts. Why?! Who decided to abandon the “a little more” system and why should the Bengals follow suit?
right. by acknowledging that dhb’s contract is ridiculously more than the same draftee from the year before, you’re acknowledging that the raiders blew the slotting system out of whack, which follows that there would be no set slot for the bengals to follow based on the 5th and 7th picks this year (since sanchez got the “quarterback deal”).
by Raging Clue on Aug 22, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
but sanchez’s “quarterback deal” is literally twice as much as the bengals are offering smith.
and DHB’s contract DID NOT blow the slotting system ridiculously out of whack. not even close.
last year’s #6 and #7 picks:
6. Vernon Gholston DE N.Y. Jets Signed 5 years, $50 million ($21M guaranteed)
7. Sedrick Ellis DT New Orleans Signed 5 years, $49 million ($19.5M guaranteed)
this year’s #6 and #7 picks:
6. Andre Smith OT Cincinnati Reported Offer 5 years, $28-33 million
7. Darrius Heyward-Bey WR Oakland Signed 5 years, $38.25 million ($23.5M guaranteed)
the misinformation coming from the bengals on this is astounding to me.
and again, look at the eugene monroe deal. the bengals offer is a low ball offer now matter which way you slice it.
by Natty Bumppo on Aug 22, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
FAIL BTCOOP71
It will not cost the Bengals 5 to 10 mil, either Andre signs of the Bengals give him nothing. If Andre were not to sign he is still Bengals property until 10 days before next years draft. SOOOO that means he falls out of the 1st round and gets a fraction of what he would get this year. Like it or not Katie has all the cards, he isn’t a skill player, his manager is a loser, and if he doesn’t get squat if he sits out. People you need to realize this is a business and the Brown family is not going to have players dictate how they are going to run it., Don’t believe me, go ask Chad how it worked out for him. Kudos Katie, stick it to him. Also just a guess, but lets see what the players say about Andre on next weeks Hard Knocks. Bottom line he will sign for no more than 500,000 to 1mil than they have offered,AND he will suck for the first half of the year. Why oh why didn’t we draft Eugene Monroe.
by hornsbykid on Aug 21, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
But letting him sit out helps the Bengals how?
The guy had red flags galore before the draft, so if signability was going to be an issue (which was universally believed) then don’t draft him. Pick Monroe.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Fair
I agree they should have drafted monroe but they probably felt like Whitworth was their guy at LT and were looking for the replacement for Willie at RT. I think Andre tricked them when he switched back to Keels. I guarentee if they thought that was going to happen they never would have drafted him
Which is why I still think this whole mess is revenge for The Great Agent Swap. I suspect they’re now trying to ruin both Smith and Keels’s careers in revenge. Well maybe not just out of revenge, but I’d be highly unsurprised if it wasn’t at least a high secondary motivation.
It would be the same,whoever we drafted
This whole situation sucks for all concerned,nobody wins,Smith,Keels or the Bengals,the system is what it is,why is it the Bengals who take a stand against it? Oh I know because they are cheap. What makes me even more frustrated is that when Smith does sign there is a good chance this year is a wash,so if he signs for example a 5 year 30 mil deal,we are only getting the benefit of him over 4 years,we loose a year he still gets the money,for Fuck sake just pay the guy a fair price.(related to todays market)
If they offered $40 Mil, $25 guaranteed...
This whole episode would be over. They, again, are playing with Carson’s health over SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS.
That’s just sad.
by IFChris on Aug 21, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The only way a rookie gets back into the draft the following year is if the team that drafted him doesn’t sign him, then after he’s put into free agency no one else signs him either. I don’t see that happening.
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