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Players worth keeping.


Since the words "clean house" float as easily around here as a helium balloon, we may as well discuss the players and coaches worth keeping. We're not the 2008 Lions and we do have some talent (we wouldn't have been calling this team the most talented in Bengals history if we didn't). So that begs the question of, if Mikey somehow wises up and decides to clean house, who is it that we should keep?

Defense

I started with the defense because I honestly think that the defense is the one part of this organization that has the fewest people worth cutting. If Kevin Coyle doesn't have a job for life here, he should. With how many defensive backs he's had to work with here, the fact that he can take the multiple names that have come here this season to help out and make them produce at a decently-adequate level is insane. Jonathan Wade looked decent out there last night for having come in on Monday. Along with him, I'm thinking all of our CBs at the start of the year need to be retained, as well as Chinedum Ndukwe, Gibril Wilson, and Reggie Nelson. I think Crocker needs to retire and Roy Williams, if he doesn't, just should go. FS should be a high priority to draft this season, if Jeromy Miles isn't the answer.

LBs....oh boy. Dhani needs to go, either by retirement or cutting. I'm not saying he's been absolutely terrible over the year, but he's regressed pretty significantly from year to year and if that trend continues, I shudder at the thought of how bad he'll be next year. Not only that, it'd free us up to draft an OLB if we move Rey into the middle or simply try the Muckman out there (in either spot). The depth for us isn't bad, and while I don't see Brandon Johnson being retained, we should still be looking at having Rey Maualuga, Keith Rivers, Dan Skuta, and Roddrick Muckleroy. Promote Vincent Rey and see what you can get out of him, but one starter is important and then depth the rest of the way.

DLine has issues, specifically DE. Peko is the only consistently-producing Tackle on this team. Pat Sims has the chance to make plays but I feel he's also the most-penalized of our tackles by a decent margin. Atkins has had little playing time, so it's hard to judge him, but he did have half a sack against the Ravens, making him the best pass rusher on our team. Tank Johnson was just signed to a four year contract, but I doubt he deserves it. He's probably the most under-performing tackle on our team and, for him to be a pass rushing specialist, doesn't do his job. End is even worse. The only worthwhile players to keep are Rucker, Fanene, and Dunlap. 

 Offense

QB needs to start over. Purely. Carson should start again somewhere else (he'd probably be a better option than anything Minnesota would find in the draft). With him goes Palmer Lite, so that's two QBs down. Considering that this should only be a move made if Luck is drafted, then all that's needed is a decent back-up, something that I can imagine will be easy to find. Coaxing Shaun Hill here from Detroit may not be a bad idea. For what it's worth, Hill has kept the Lions in most of the games he's been in and while his interceptions come at the worst possible times, he at the very least can keep a team competitive as a back-up. LeFevour never sees the field anyway so I see no reason to cut ties with him yet.

WR needs a clean house. T.O. will leave regardless because he wants a ring and still has it. He should probably try to latch on with the Steelers because they're probably his best chance but that's just cherrypicking. I think Caldwell just signed his ticket out of town and Simpson never really showed up anyway. That leaves Chad, Shipley, and Cosby, all three of whom should be obtained. Cosby, for what it's worth, has heavily regressed on special teams but simultaneously, when he has gotten into games, he's caught passes. He's half the reason why Carson was coming alive at the end of the Wild Card game--someone could catch passes besides Chad. Speaking of Chad, the kids need some sort of veteran presence, but Chad should also be allowed to finish his career here. He's the best Bengals WR numbers-wise and should be at least given that option, at least for another year. When your specialty is routes and sidelines, that's not something that usually goes away, unlike the speed of deep threats. Shipley's a no-brainer.

TE is probably our most set position going forward. I see Reggie Kelly retiring after this year and I wouldn't mind a push to sign a veteran, but if it's just Gresham and Coffman on opening day on 2011 (or 2012), then it doesn't bother me.

For RBs, Cedric...how to go about this. This is the man that carried us on his back in 2009 and when he's given a hole and a lane, he usually gets good yardage, but that should be said for any back. He's a power back, but he's routinely stopped at the line of scrimmage this year. I don't know if I should fault the OLine for that or simply because Cedric's wheels fell off after 2009. He's also developed a habit of fumbling, which makes him even worse. We talk about Carson being cut, Chad being cut, T.O. leaving, but for what it's worth, Benson should only come back if the team makes an open commitment to a power-running team again and takes a contract similar to one he has now. I see the former one being a good possibility if we want to raise our rookie right or simply want to limit Carson Palmer in the remainder of his time here, but I doubt Benson takes the latter. Bernard Scott is hard to judge, him being another heavily-underutilized Bengals player but most seem to hate him as a kick returner. He's got something Benson doesn't have--field vision--and I can't fault Scott for getting plugged at the line of scrimmage because Bratkowski runs him up the middle routinely, but I feel like he's worth keeping as depth, a change of pace back, and he's cheap. Leonard can stick around as the third-down back, he's very good at it and he probably picks up blitzes the best. Cedric Peerman is basically depth and doesn't need to stay or go. 

That leaves the OLine. Whitworth and Andre Smith are the only keepers here, Whitworth being our best lineman and Smith having a ton of potential if he can just stay healthy and in-shape. Bobbie Williams might retire despite being on a two-year deal, since it appears we're going back into rebuilding phase. Nate Livings and Kyle Cook are average and replaceable, but simultaneously wouldn't be bad as depth. The depth outside of Hudson and Stephens should probably part ways with the team and we can focus on depth or possible starters in the offseason. 

STs

I don't fault Nugent for a lot and Huber's not terrible even if he is inconsistent. Huber has some really good punts at some really good times and Nugent's injury might've been there prior to the Colts game. He also was a victim of a blocked kick and has had a lot of long field goals. I'd be willing to give Nuge another shot next year and I don't see any wrong with keeping Huber. Our depth beyond these guys should all be good special teams players, and Adam Jones is on IR. You expect drop-off when your best player at that position isn't playing, regardless of how depth should come in and fill in at a decent level.

So, putting it all together, if we part ways with players listed, you'd get a depth chart of something like this:

QB (1): LeFevour

RB (2): Scott, Leonard

WR (3): Ochocinco, Shipley, Cosby

TE (2): Gresham, Coffman

OT (2): Whitwoth, Smith

OG (2): Livings, Hudson

C (2): Cook, Stephens

DE (3): Dunlap, Fanene, Rucker

DT (3): Peko, Sims, Atkins

LB (4): Mauluga, Rivers, Muckelroy, Skuta

S (3): Wilson, Ndukwe, Nelson

CB (5): Joseph, Hall, Jones, Ghee, Trent

K (1): Nugent

P (1): Huber

Considering Carson comes off the books in this, Joseph should get a pretty decent extension that should keep him here, with Hall getting a good one as well. These are two players I'd love to make Bengals for life, or at least during their primes.

That's it. I'll discuss coaches and optimal drafts in the next one.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors.

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Display:

QB: None
RB: Scott, Leonard
WR: Shipley
TE: Gresham, Coffman
OL: Whit, Smith, Cook

DL: Peko, Atkins, Dunlap, Sims, Johnson, Fanene
LB: I’ll stay out of this one b/c I’m not a fan of any of them
DB: Joseph, Hall, Jones, Uncle Rico, Wade

by smoormandiddy on Nov 26, 2010 1:24 PM EST reply actions  

you're getting rid of michael johnson?

i wouldn’t put him at DE, i’d move him to OLB with rey in the middle. but even as a DE, i keep him. all the guy does is work and bat down balls at the line. if he learns to pull those in more often, he could be an interception machine.

also, no way i keep wilson. there are a ton of above average safeties coming out in the draft this year. i’d also consider keeping wade as the 4th/5th corner and moving ghee to FS. he’s got range, he can hit, and he’s got potential

RIP Slim.

by brandone on Nov 26, 2010 2:57 PM EST reply actions  

Dammit, I knew I forgot someone.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 26, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Nugent’s injury might’ve been there prior to the Colts game

No way. The injury is a torn ACL and strained MCL. He wouldn’t have been walking, let alone kicking.

I like Nuge but he’ll probably never be the same again after that.

Win a ring without the king! Cavs=2011 champs?

by sexsalad on Nov 26, 2010 3:21 PM EST reply actions  

Same? Maybe, maybe not. It’s actually possible he could come back better. People have come back from similar and even worse injuries and played better after they healed up from the surgery. The question is whether his surgery is done by a competent surgeon or not, and whether he works on his rehab with dedication and heart. If both of those happen, I expect him to come back at least pretty close to as good as he was before.

by FriarBob on Nov 26, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I had a complete ACL tear in my knee

 and had a cadaver tendon put in. I totally have full use of my knee and currently play sports to this day, 2 years after surgery. I don’t even where a brace when I play indoor soccer. It’s just as good as or better. Thank God for the Doctor..

by WHYUS!! on Nov 27, 2010 2:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Definitely don't want to see Geathers & Odom anymore and excited about the development of Dunlap

I’m conflicted on Peko and Rivers. Both seem to be a little overrated in my mind. When I try to focus on them, I don’t see much penetration from Peko and have a hard time even spotting Rivers, since he lacks big plays (partly because he’s more of a coverage guy). I’m actually beginning to think Sims is playing better than Peko in certain situations.

I’d like to see us hold onto Bobbie Williams and TO. Bobbie because he seems to still have it and is probably the most passionate and provides good leadership. I’d really like to see us draft another OT and shift Whitworth back to LG.

If Pacman comes back healthy, I’m wondering if we should shift Leon Hall to FS, so we don’t have to waste a high draft pick at the position. Then we’ll have three probowl-caliber coverage guys on the field.

And Shaun Hill did look very impressive. If we could somehow steal him or Kolb from Philly, we might have a new QB (and cut Palmer’s ridiculous salary to sign a FA lineman or linebacker).

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Nov 26, 2010 4:05 PM EST reply actions  

I tried not to overrate Peko and Rivers.

I feel like they’re both solid guys who don’t do a lot otherwise. They make the plays you expect them to make, but no one considers them tops at their position. Even if we bring in new guys, you could expect solid snaps should they see the field, rotation or not. Nothing flashy or spectacular (Peko plays the run more than the pass) but y’know.

I feel like if Bobbie still wants to play, he’ll probably be here. He’s not left when times are bad. T.O. almost certainly will jump ship unless no one wants him again.

I’m tired of the experiments, though. Let people play the positions they play. No Whit at LG, no [insert CB here] at FS, no Gresham at FB, none of it anymore. I’ve got an issue (among many) with this organization that it tries to make its players jacks-of-all-trades and not masters of a single skillset.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 26, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

well Whit started off as a LG, which he excelled at

so he is familiar with it. I’m not huge on shifting Hall to FS, but there are a lot of CB’s who made the transition to safety in the NFL, and if we don’t, then we need to either burn a high draft pick on one or hope we can somehow fanagle a decent FS FA here (fat chance). As far as the other position changes on the team, I’d probably agree with you.

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Nov 28, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

If we were routinely successful at it, I'd be more open to it.

We’re not, I don’t trust it at all.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 28, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably would be worth checking with other teams.

The better question is who would come here.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 28, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, that is the question
who would come here?

Moisture is the essense of wetness, and wetness is the essense of beauty.

by Blue Steel on Nov 28, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

At this point, it'd take a really good coach to get some FAs here.

Our record isn’t gonna do it, and neither is our owner.

Which, the latter is going to decide whether or not we get a good coach. Ho-hum.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 28, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Just the Name Mike Brown

makes FAs run far away from here. They know not to come here b/c of him.
Like you said, it would take a really good coach that players respect for them to come here.

by WHYUS!! on Nov 28, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Which, again, relies on Mike Brown.

Should I just prepare for the Dark Ages and a perpetual hope of getting better when that’s never the case?

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 28, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup!

I’m starting to stock up on replays of the good ole’ days…again!

by WHYUS!! on Nov 29, 2010 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

good ole' days

meaning 2005 and 2009 right?

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 29, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

If the new regime drafts luck I hope they keep Palmer on for at least a year

Palmer getting to sit for a year and learn under Kitna was great, and I think that would be key for Luck’s success.

by Throw the ball on Nov 26, 2010 4:11 PM EST reply actions  

I wouldn't mind it, though I'd prefer Shaun Hill if that were the case.

Being a Lions fan, I’ve watched both Hill and Palmer and I can honestly say that the performance you’d get from Hill would be approximately the same you’d get from Palmer. This is only so we can cut ties with Palmer’s ridiculous salary and use that money for Jonathan Joseph, Leon Hall, and Linemen.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 26, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't want our new QB to be Palmerized please

What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.

by jimbasa on Nov 26, 2010 5:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

no

What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.

by jimbasa on Nov 27, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

A rare display of sympathy for a man you so vehemently bash.

But regardless, I express a similar desire.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 26, 2010 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't want our new QB to be Palmerized please

What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.

by jimbasa on Nov 26, 2010 5:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Even if we cut palmer, I feel that we can get a average QB to start next season if we don’t get a guy in the draft. Grankowski from oakland comes to mind as well. Kind of like hill, small arm but can move make plays.

Also call me crazy but id like to see more of mcdonald on Dline. Also collins should stay

by BigJungle on Nov 26, 2010 6:45 PM EST reply actions  

McDonald is a solid back up

What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.

by jimbasa on Nov 28, 2010 5:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Great write up and agree

Our offense is pretty set if we just get a bit more help on the offensive line and get a new QB. I’d prefer a vet, Hill or Orton would both do fine, but both of them depend on the development and health of the QB’s behind them to know whether they will leave or not. Defense, it’s really a mixed bag.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Nov 27, 2010 6:47 PM EST reply actions  

we need to learn from the successful teams....

To start next season, we need to make sure we have these (and let the rest fall where it may):
Good QB
Good O-Line
Good CB’s
Good rushing DE’s

Good QB
Sad to say, but we don’t have this. Even if dump Carson i don’t see them bringing in a clear upgrade, and neither Jordie or Dan LeFlours aren’t the answer.
Even if Luck leaves Stanford early, and even if we draft him….it’s going to take a year or so until he’s able to run the offense.
So it would seem that Carson is our best option here….unfortunately

Good O-Line
Hmmm…it’s fairly decent, but not exactly great.
Whit is good. I’d like to see Smith in a whole season. The interior seems to get pushed around too often. I think we need at least 1 solid O-Lineman added this offseason.

Good CB’s
Everybody seems to agree that we need to sign J Jo. Amen!
J Jo & L Hall are a very good tandem. If we had any pash rush, they’d be even better.
They need to do what is necessary to keep them.

Good rushing DE’s
Geathers surely doesn’t qualify for this.
Odom did for part of last year, but then got hurt & later suspended for juicing up, and hasn’t been that impressive since then. So neither of our “starters” fill this requirement.
Dunlap & M Johnson could be this possibly? Likely 1 of them will pan out, but that still leaves a hole at 1 DE position.

by ephram on Nov 28, 2010 9:18 PM EST reply actions  

Y'know, I'm thinking Carson may not be the worst of our problems, though he's part of it.

After what I"m hearing about that SoundFX stuff, Bratkowski’s just batshit up the belfry and needs to walk away. And if that’s the case, I want to see if Palmer improves leaps and bounds from having a bit better of an OLine (which seems likely, considering how much better he performed when Andre Smith was playing) and if he had someone intelligent calling plays in the booth that actually has the sense to realize that players are humans and aren’t robots.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 28, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, Carlos Dunlap has been a beast and he's just a rookie.

I really hope he’s not a one-year wonder but I think I’m honestly going to start watching the games and focusing on the youth now to see how they produce since they’re our future.

So yes, Dunlap is definitely a starter next year and I think Michael Johnson will be as well. Hell, look at Minnesota’s defense. That’s essentially what they do. Put two massive run-stuffers at DT (Williams Wall), two DEs great at rushing the passer (Jared Allen and Ray Edwards), then have three good LBs. Their secondary is nothing spectacular but our secondary is good with just Hall and Joseph. Get a competent FS out there and hot damn, good luck throwing it on us. Considering most teams play more to the pass, that’s what I’d want to cover first naturally and then gameplan for the run. Dare teams to pass on us.

I’d be okay with a draft board of a good DE, a good OLinemen, a good FS, and a #1-type WR as well as a potential pure deep threat as well. Or running something akin to the Patriots offense, which relies on both Gronkowski and Hernandez (Gresham as a better version of Gronkowski and Coffman as at least something possibly equal to Hernandez).

The only way to get that to work is to get Bratkowski out of the booth though, which isn’t possible.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 28, 2010 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we need two OL players. We need a RT and at least one new Guard, preferably two. Lard Tits can be any of those if he could just get and stay healthy, but he won’t. So that means at least two, maybe three new OL players.

by FriarBob on Nov 30, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

T.O. is extremely unlikely. However offering him more than others may get him to comeback.

And are there any stipulations involving the Franchise Tag? T.O. has been the only bright spot on this team at times this year. I think it’s work a try to get him back for another year. I don’t think you just let him walk like Buffalo did.

by JamesShively on Nov 29, 2010 4:57 PM EST reply actions  

I like T.O. but he'll be 38.

He’s been good about outrunning his age but who knows when it finally catches him. Throw in the fact that he wants a ring (and probably deserves one, Rice and Moss both have rings), regardless of the money (he did take a paycut to come here, I think he’s just playing for the championship), he’ll go where he has the best chance of getting a ring. Sadly, that’s not the Bengals.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Nov 29, 2010 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think he took a pay cut to come here.

As far as I’m aware we we’re the only offer on the table for him to start the season. He would have probably got on somewhere else due to them losing someone to injury. However as far as getting in to training camp and starting off with a team we we’re his only offer.

by JamesShively on Nov 30, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Just because we were his best (only) offer doesn’t mean he didn’t take a pay cut. Because he made 6 mil last year and he’ll only get 2/3rd of that if he continues to light it up for the entire rest of the year. Which he probably won’t, as defenses are starting to roll coverage to him and Carson’s under too much pressure. So instead he’ll probably only hit about half his potential incentives and make 3 million.

6 million to 3 million is a whopping 50% pay cut.

by FriarBob on Nov 30, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Some money is better than no money.

That’s the situation he was in. That’s like saying I took a pay cut by getting a job at McDonalds when my alternative was the unemployment line. Sure McDonalds doesn’t pay as much as my last job but it’s not necessarily a pay cut if I was making nothing at all at the time.

by JamesShively on Dec 1, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Really, guys think I could land in Minnesota?

AWESOME! I’m gonna get Adrian Peterson’s autograph!

I got nothing better to do.

by therealcarsonpalmer on Nov 30, 2010 3:44 PM EST reply actions  

Send me one.

Joe Reedy: "Supposedly Marvin could not find his flag to challenge the call. I am not kidding. #bengals"

by Doc Scratch on Dec 2, 2010 6:15 AM EST up reply actions  

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