Joe Walter: Offensive Line Is Not Being Taught Technique
by Josh Kirkendall on Dec 7, 2010 2:28 PM EST
in Analysis
Email
PrintFormer Bengals offensive lineman Joe Walker, a 12-year veteran as the team's right tackle, joined Lance McAlister on 700 WLW's Bengals Line Monday Night. When asked about some of the problems on this team, Walter points to his old playing ground, the offensive line. The problem isn't so much the players, rather it's that he suspects that the technique isn't being taught like it was in his day, where teams had 6-8 weeks of two-a-days as opposed to today where most teams go 2-3 weeks worth of training camp.
"You can kind of tell the technique isn't the most important part of the game," said Walter. "It's just trying to stay in front of the guy. We're going to draft the biggest, the strongest guy that we can, huddle on the team and hopefully he can out-muscle the guy in front of him. And that's not what the game is all about. It's about footwork and technique.
"I think this team lacks in a lot of technique. You look at some of these guys out there that are starting. Roland. Prime example, he's a big tall kid. But his technique, he gets out there great and his sets are perfect when he gets out there, its just that when he's ready to engage his hands goes wide and he leaves his chest wide open. It's so simple to fix, it's like it's not being taught, the technique on how to stop it or they don't know how to help him."
As a result of the bad offensive line play, Walter, along with Dave Lapham, believes that Palmer has become so shell-shocked that his "clock is messed up", therefore throwing passes under a constant threat of being plowed into, which causes his own technique problems while rushing his passes. "I think he's just been beat up and he's to the point where he's shell shocked," said Walter. "I'm kind of calling it a David Klingler type of fiasco. If you remember Kingler was always getting hit." He continues, "I think he's back there fending for his life, and he's scared he's going to get pummeled every time he lets go of the ball."
This exchange simplifies the same argument that we've had at Cincy Jungle for years, but were recently sidetracked from it after last season's playoff run.
Joe Walter: "It's start on the line. Football always has started with the front five."
Dave Lapham: "Always will."
Walter: "You're right, it always will."
37 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
so lets get a list of people who say Carson is done, and those who say its not him
Joe Walter- done
TJ Houshmadzadeh- not Carsons fault
www.fantasydaddy.com
RE:
He puts the onus on the offensive line and their technique, remarking on Carson as the result of the poor offensive line play. Carson being “done” is NOT the conclusion he made.
Managing Editor at CincyJungle.com -- SB Nation Cincinnati Bengals blog.
by Josh Kirkendall on Dec 7, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
thats how i read it too Josh
he didn’t come close to saying Carson’s done…just that he’s got Fitzy-Feet b/c he doesn’t trust/have confidence in our line’s ability to pass block
The Curse of Bo Jackson: Jan 13th,1991- present day
thats the conclusion i came to
www.fantasydaddy.com
by Joe Goodberry on Dec 7, 2010 9:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hire Joe
Well what a bright light entering Bengaldom. Ok MB here’s your chance to get a good OL coach. Munoz is first pick if he would even consider it but Joe is a very solid second. Start rebuilding now.
by sofakingood on Dec 7, 2010 2:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Munoz is a great idea.
I don’t know why they haven’t approached him sooner about the position.
MIKE BROWN STEP DOWN!!!
by D-Day77 on Dec 7, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Munoz
They may have, he may have just thought to himself "Do I really want to ruin my “God like” reputation in this town by trying to help this mess of a team?" Remember Munoz was a Paul guy, he may not want anything to do with Mike Brown’s Bengals. I could only imagine what he’s heard from guys he’s played with like Ken Anderson,or was around like Dick Lebeau whom have tried to help this team out but where unsuccessful under Mikey Boy. Of course this post is speculative but I doubt Anthony wants apart in this.
by JamesShively on Dec 7, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Possibly... I'd like to see... Munoz offered the position
of line coach and final word on personnel.
Of course, I’d also like to bang Salma Hayek, and I would actually say that has a better chance of happening.
RE; Munoz
went to HS w/his son, and he actually came on our staff at Moeller, but it was a very breif stint. Lots of speculation about why he didn’t stick around longer, but with everything he’s involved in w/the community/church, business ventures etc I’d say if he wanted to get into coaching, he probably would’ve done so a LONG time ago.
I’d love to have him too, but i dunno- seems like he could basically approach the Bengals and ask for the job and they’d hand it to him but that has never happened…dunno why
The Curse of Bo Jackson: Jan 13th,1991- present day
RE:
It’s kind of hard for me to believe that in the 20 years Mike has ran the team Anthony hasn’t been offered something at some point in time. Especially when you consider the kind of in house loyalty Mike lives and dies by. It’s my guess he wants no part of it.
i would say thats probably pretty accurate
either that or he has zero desire to coach (or zero desire to coach under MB)
The Curse of Bo Jackson: Jan 13th,1991- present day
I'll go ya one better.
Let’s encourage some of these guys from the past glory days with Cincinnati to put together a group to finance buying this organization from the Brown family. Names that come immediately to mind that have gone on record that they are disgusted with the present situation in Bengal land are Munoz, Lapham, Collinsworth, Esiason, Fulcher & Walter here, ect. I’d entrust the organization to these guys because they know football and what it takes to put a championship caliber team on the field. Damn, anything would be better than the leadership in this organization.
I've said it before and I'll say it again...
Breaking up the O-Line after Carson got his knee blown out in 05’ was the worst thing they could have done. He is a pocket passer, he cannot move. He has got to have a good line to give him protection or else he is not going to be effective. Rich Brahm going down hurt bad enough, because he made the line calls, and getting rid of Steinbach was a huge mistake. They should have brought in a proven veteran center after Brahm went down.
Of course Palmer is gun shy, who wouldn’t be behind that line?
One thing I don’t ever hear is anyone one calling for Paul Alexander’s job. The line is terrible and unless you have a mobile quarterback you are going to continue to struggle.
MIKE BROWN STEP DOWN!!!
by D-Day77 on Dec 7, 2010 2:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Its a new age...
Lineman are not what they use to be with the spread offense dominating college now. The spread offense was designed to work with undersized lineman so they don’t have to hold their blocks as long by spreading out the field. There are only a hand full of pro style offenses in college now. Things are changing and we have to have players that fit with the change in talent coming out of college.
Our system; or lack there of, has to have certain pieces in place if it wants to succeed. Those pieces in order for us to succeed are becoming harder to find that fit with what we have. It is time to change the scheme, Wonderbob isn’t smart enough to adapt, that is why we are constantly losing. His gimmick worked for a while last year, but it only got us so far. Teams figured it out real quick in the end.
MIKE BROWN STEP DOWN!!!
I'll give Alexander the benefit of the doubt
I seriously think he has nothing to work with talent wise.
What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.
by jimbasa on Dec 7, 2010 3:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Exactly...
Lack of talent on the O-Line is the whole reason we are in this predicament. Everything must be built around the line on both sides of the ball…
MIKE BROWN STEP DOWN!!!
I've said it before
find me one ex-player or coach that has anything good to say about this organizaton
Joe Walter: “It’s start on the line. Football always has started with the front five.”
Brilliant! Not really everyone know this if they know anything about football. Does anyone watch Tom Brady? Watch him and tell me why he’s so great when he plays great. Watch his bad games(Baltimore playoff game last year) and then tell me why he played bad.
Also Peyton Manning as of lately.
Look at what happens to “the best QB to ever play the game” when his offensive line stops working for him. Everyone is wondering “what is wrong with Peyton Manning?” I have the answer for you… His offensive line has been horrible!
Why is Rapistberger so good with or without a good O-line?
What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.
by jimbasa on Dec 7, 2010 3:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
because his coaching staff designs the game plan around his style.
Bengals 2010. Road 2 The Toilet Bowl.
Paul Brown Stadium "The Home of the 2nd down 1yd Run" +
"More blue lines than google earth"
No
He’s just a really good QB
What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.
by jimbasa on Dec 7, 2010 3:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not entirely. Oh he’s good. Wish he wasn’t. But he is. But that’s not the entirely story. He’s also one seriously STRONG sob. That gets him out of a few sacks from time to time.
he's got great pocket presence
and a build to actually take a hit if need be. More often than not though, when he does get sacked, or gets out of it it’s b/c almost no one can get a direct hit on him, or a kill shot if you will (kind of like what happened to favre last wknd). he always senses the pressure, or it comes from a tough angle and he’s big enough/mobile enough to get out of it b4 being grabbed or smashed
The Curse of Bo Jackson: Jan 13th,1991- present day
Which is not the style of Carson Palmer.
Palmer is a pure pocket passer which demands an offensive line he can have confidence in. A line this among the best in the league. Like I said see Tom Brady or Peyton Manning at their best and at their worst.
He's also quite mobile and,,,,,
his 6’7’’ size makes him harder to bring down. As with young girls, Big Ben knows how to deceive a defense lol.
Carson done? hahaha
TO – mysteriously putitng up his best numbers in years at 36 – who is throwing to him
Gresham – Rookie TE recording record # of receptions – who is throwing to him ?
Shipley – Rookie Slot receiver doing very well ? who is throwing to him ?
Carson has the most picks and his lowest qb rating on what down ? 3rd down
what happens before he throws on 2nd down ?
run for short or no gain and a penalty -
So Carson is leading the league practicaly on 1st 2nd and 4th down when he throws but his arm is not what it used to be only on third down so he is not what he used to be ?
The Penalties, subpar line and running game + play calling all working against him.
This is an Elite QB doing some Elite things playing on a team with the most obvious play calling and not being allowed to do what he does best which is lead.
Whoever lands Mr. Palmer next season will be a very happy organization when 2011 is over.
Bengals 2010. Road 2 The Toilet Bowl.
Paul Brown Stadium "The Home of the 2nd down 1yd Run" +
"More blue lines than google earth"
by bengals life on Dec 7, 2010 3:16 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
You know I have seen it both ways this year...
and I think Carson would flourish under another system.
But I think you are right. He is a great quarterback being held back by some really insurmountable obstacles. I mean, in the NFL you have got to have an o-line and your OC has got to be able to get you something with the scheme. CP9 has an inconsistent (to be kind) line and… well, Brat’s scheming is not getting the offense anything, in fact it’s giving something to the defense whoever that may be in a given week.
So we either need to trade CP9 and get a someone who can buy time every play – -probably the best choice in this draft for that type of player is Newton, who is big and mobile like that jerk from the Steelers (though obviously Newton is doesn’t have the passing and reading down at that level yet) or we need to commit to rebuilding this line yesterday. FA, draft, cloning, time travel… whatever it takes.
There are plenty of other weak points, but Palmer has got to have a pocket to be effective. If we can’t get him a pocket, then he’s not worth what we pay him. If we can, he’s gonna be worth every penny.
Also, he needs to be allowed to run this team on the field. I get the feeling he’s being treated as if he were just another cog in the machine when it comes to latitude. Let’s design the offense around the no-huddle and let CP9 do his thing.
I agree!
It’s either upgrade the offensive line and keep Carson or get someone who can move around. Either way we go we need new scheming.
Good points.
I think Carson will do well if he has good coaching and a good line to work with.
"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428
I agree and disagree
I don’t think Palmer is done but I do think he has lost arm strength and is not a QB that will thrive in a downfield passing system. He has no zip on his passes and he’s constantly under-throwing on passes over 20 yards. I do think he’ll thrive in a Belichick type offense but definitely not the right QB for Brat’s scheme anymore.
And to be fair to the line, they line has played very well at times and Palmer has still made mistakes…a lot of them. I think the blame is on the line, QB and coaches.
I think the blame, out of those 3, goes like this...
1. Coaching.
2. Line
3. Carson
Seriously, the entire coaching staff needs to be cleaned out. Carson is still above average in my opinion.
"I bet that sex Bengals fan is really pissed now." -DT3428
Bad coaching? Who knew?
Carson Palmer hasn’t played well for years and has been outplayed by Flacco and Rothlesburger for the last two years. His stats don’t lie. His play this year is mediocre at best. In critical situations, he’s thrown INT after INT, some forced into double or triple coverage.
I’m willing to concede a new coach might think that they can cure CP’s ills and want to rebuild with new coaching and some new blood on the line. But at their position in the draft, they must look at the top QB’s available to replace their $12million/year man in CP.
riddle me this
I know a little, not much, but talk to Jerry Jones occasionally. whit was such a dominant LG but those salads he ate on Hard Knocks, meaning they trimmed him down to play LT. Henderson and Haynesworth swung their helmets at Whit, in frustration, after he dominated them. They took an all pro caliber guard, who was a dominant run blocker, a rare ability, Nate Newton ability, and make him an average LT. Now they can’t run, and I bet Livings is a problem but I am no expert, as I said. Did see his fat a** on the ground and get pushed around a couple of time. LOL! That 73, who played 3 seasons ago, at LT, and his first game in the NFL against Pittsburg and he allowed 0 sacks, yet was labeled a soft run-blocker, but good pass-blocker, hell left tackles are blocking 285 pound ends usually, he can run block good enough, and Evan Mathis is a dominant run blocker, Mike Webster strength, veteran lineman, he played yesterday, where’s he been? Offense, especially rushing, had some hiccups, but NO has good players on defense, so CED might have struggled more if the changes weren’t made and I would love to look at the tape and see who was on the field, and when, when they crashed and burned, and also when they moved the ball. I agree, it’s the line, but upgrades are needed anyway, but they had to get cute, at Alexander’s insistence, AS was HIS guy. Now Eugene Monroe, who they passed on, and who IS a left tackle, and if they had gone with the safer pick, because the dominance, Whitworth type of run-blocker, they envisioned, isn’t going to come from AS, now a need you just addressed has to be addressed again, because I can’t believe his 5th and 6th year get picked up, and that has to be decided this off-season. If he made that call, (Alexander) he can get the f*(* out too.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Detroit Lions DT Nick Fairley arrested again; now has more NFL arrests than NFL sacks
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
- UPDATE: Charlie Sheen didn’t buy Lawrence Taylor’s Super Bowl ring
