Bengals Banter: Why I don't think the Bengals will draft a tight end in the first round
by Josh Kirkendall on Feb 24, 2010 2:00 PM EST
in Analysis
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Would you trade for the first overall draft pick? Reports are surfacing that the St. Louis Rams are considering trading their first overall draft pick for the accumulation of additional draft picks to help out several areas on the team's roster. This isn't surprising. Whether it's made public or not, you get the feeling that most teams would dump their first overall draft pick if they're not seeking a franchise-level quarterback. With exploding rookie salaries, can you blame them? Matthew Stafford, last year's first overall draft pick, signed a deal that guaranteed him $41.7 million. Jake Long signed a deal for $30 million guaranteed -- Matt Ryan, that year's third overall draft pick signed for $34.75 million guaranteed. JaMarcus Russell, the 2007 first overall draft pick, signed a contract that gave him $32 million guaranteed (how's that going for Oakland?).
With cost alone, who in their right mind would want possession of the first overall draft pick?
Why I don't think the Bengals will draft a tight end in the first round. Since 2003, the Bengals most productive tight end in the passing game was Reggie Kelly in 2008, recording 31 receptions. In his six seasons with the Bengals, he's scored three touchdowns and has never recorded more than 254 yards receiving. In fact, during the Marvin Lewis era, Matt Schobel has had the most span as a Bengals tight end -- 332 yards receiving in 2003 and seven touchdowns from 2003 until 2005.
It's not much. Not much at all. But you could argue that the Bengals just haven't had the talent for a tight end that's explosive in the passing game. True. But I counter this: when did the Bengals ever attempt to find a tight end explosive enough in the passing game? Chase Coffman is the best example that comes to mind; even he is a bad example because he didn't make the field once.
This goes back to a belief I have about the team's offensive philosophy. Tight ends are blockers who can run short routes as a hot read, or as a last option. Furthermore, Cincinnati has always favored wide receivers. As long as the Bengals are redefining themselves as a run first offense, there's no reason to believe that the Bengals will acquire anyone that puts their overall ability to block in doubt. Being an explosive tight end isn't a necessity -- it's a icing on the cake.
Julius Peppers could be a free agent. If Carolina elects not to put the franchise tag on Julius Peppers by Thursday, then the defensive end would become a free agent when it kicks off in early March. Even though they're not mentioned as being interested, if you were the Bengals general manager, would you take a look at adding Peppers to the mix?
Obviously cost is a factor, which would likely eliminate the Bengals from any thought of talking with Peppers. Furthermore, Cincinnati has Antwan Odom, Robert Geathers and Michael Johnson, all of whom are pass rushing specialists. Don't forget about Jonathan Fanene, who impresses me every time he plays with a good balance against the run and the pass. And when Frostee Rucker plays, he's shown to have flashes of production. On the other hand, none of those players are close to the caliber of Julius Peppers. Make a run for feelers or would you pass?
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2010 Draft
The Bengals need serious help with Offense. Can we draft an Offensive Coordinator???? Bratkowski is OLD! He needs to be replaced by someone with an imagination. But since he probably will not be replaced (there goes the 2010 season) I would settle with a wide receiver in the first round. The only two in my mind are Golden Tate and Marty Gilyard. Tate first and Gilyard second.
is this some kind of a weird joke..
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 24, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
?
id dont live in Ohio and i never have, that also allows me to see Gilyard for what he is. It seems like most of you are wearing Cincy Goggles
www.fantasydaddy.com
should have made myself clearer..
robusmc.. is this some kind of a weird joke..
robusmc.. is this some kind of a weird joke..
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 25, 2010 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
Just say no
Trading up? Wouldn’t do it. The more draft picks the better. The NFL draft is hardly rocket science and putting all your eggs in an extremely expensive basket doesn’t make sense because even expensive baskets can blow an ACL (mixed metaphor, but you get it). That’s why most teams would happily dump their early first round pick—they just have trouble finding takers.
I agree on the TE. The Bengals have spent two draft picks on TEs the past two years. Neither has set foot on the field for a regular season game. Better off signing a veteran and letting Coffman develop. Whether its philosophy or practicality—the Bengals shouldn’t draft Gresham unless we are confident he is the best option on the board.
Peppers? Only way we go after Peppers is if it looks like Odom’s injury is more severe than originally thought—which doesn’t appear to be the case as I read that he has been running and doing weight work.
Totally
agree on them not going after a TE with their first pick, and tate and Gilyard would be a big time reach with the 21st pick. At 21 it has to be “the best player available” and don’t be surprised if it ends up being on the defensive side of the ball. Hopefully Coffman actually gets on the field this year and contributes. No way do I see them going after Peppers, too much money and we are fine at DE.
thanks for mentioning...
Julius Peppers, Mr. Kirk.
In my humble opinion, you can never have enough lineman. If they can get Julius Peppers, they absolutely should.
Also, I don’t believe the Bengals will invest the #21 pick in a TE. if I were holding on to that pick, I’d use it on a Defensive Player. Defensive Players are more likely to make an immediate impact, and a bad ass safety or pass rusher would bring a good defense a little closer to great. Why waste that pick on a TE coming off a knee surgery? And First year receivers tend to struggle. You’re supposed to use your first round pick on a player that can make an immediate impact, and I feel such a player would be on the defensive side.
(Feel free to grill me on this thought)
3 yards and a pile of dust
- I see them going after a play-maker, no matter the position. WR, RB, FS, DT, DE, TE. You can always find OL in the middle rounds. Thye need to add somebody that will make Coordinators gameplan around. Offense or Defense
- Peppers? would I sign him? No, because the cost will be Haynesworth style, and people question if he plays hard every play. I cant pay a guy who dosnt play everyplay. Remember when we didnt sign Takeo Spikes? and instead added Tory James, Hardy, Carl Powell, Bobbie Williams. Well this time instead of peppers, we could extend Joseph, Hall, Benson, Whitworth, B.Johnson
I wanted to ask if anybody is getting excited again about Coffman after all of the things we have read over the past few weeks?
www.fantasydaddy.com
been excited since we drafted him.. I hope its worth the wait.
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 24, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been a little higher on him after hearing the things Marvin has said… we’ll take a guy who can catch anything thrown his way. Let’s hope he can learn to block.
Kirk... man you can't forget
actions almost always speak louder than words…. no matter personal perfernce you can’t deny certain facts these last 2-3 years
1. Brown rarely makes a splash n FA… he made a splash for a No.2 TE in Utecht, overpaying him by most accounts
2. Mike Brown actaully tried to 1.trade for in season and 2. for a very generous offer a TE that again was a No.2 and hasn’t proven without a doubt to be a No.1
3. healthy Kelly and Utecht, Coats as a back-up and he still took a one-sided TE in the 3rd AND looked at|picked up another TE in UDFA land
I know its more about personal preference but we have to take into consideration what he Main Guy has to say about it
Have to disagree... slightly
Utecht was a splash but so were a few other guys, Kelly was, Bobbie Wiliams was, John Thorton, and Kevin Hardy was. None of them were large splashes but they were splashes. Warren Sapp was close by all accounts.
The one TE I could see the Benglas taking in the 1st round is Moeaki from Iowa. He is a competent and willing blocker who can catch. I don’t see Gresham or Hernadez as they are catch first TE.
I could also see the Bengals going after Ben Watson if the money is right. The Bengals are willing to sign a mid level free agent to play a significant role if they have a need.
Tony Moeaki
is nowhere near worth a 1st rounder. He doesn’t have the numbers, speed/size nor the dominant performances to be worth being drafted there. He also isn’t anywhere near Elite in his blocking (which he would beed to be for the 1st round)… better than Gresham and Hernandez yes… but not really good enough to ignore his good but not great speed/size. His stats aren’t great either. Add to that injury issues and it wouldn’t be advisable to draft him before the 3rd round.
by Sheffieldbengal on Feb 24, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
so mikey boy will trade up to draft him first overall?
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 24, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
who are you replying to?
if its me.. the things Mike does to anger the jungle, goes over most of our heads..
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 25, 2010 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
Gresham has said
he’s running in the 4.8 range… that is nowhere good enough for a pass-catching TE in the 1st round. Brandon Pettigrew can get away with that because he is an awesome blocker and route-runner but Gresham can’t really get away with a 4.8 speed. He needs speed that’ll burn CBs not just some slower LBs. Injury and this speed just makes me think that Bengals will draft him less and less. Brown is said to be high on his tape but i don’t think he’ll ignore the injury issue and a slow 40 time.
Another thing to note is stuff like this comming out of the Bengals.com website:
Head coach Marvin Lewis said as much last week when he declared that Coffman can be a big-play receiver and Jordan Palmer, the Bengals No. 3 quarterback, says Coffman has elite hands.
"I can’t think of any receiver I’ve ever thrown to that has better hands than Chase," Palmer said. "And J.T. (O’Sullivan) and I have thrown to him more than anybody on the Bengals. Carson (Palmer) hasn’t thrown to him yet and I just tell him to wait. If he’s healthy, I think he’s going to be able to contribute in the red zone this year. (Linebacker) Brandon Johnson told me he was the toughest tight end he covered in practices and games all season."
Coffman has also said he feels more comfortable in regards to blocking. Sounds promising at least, but that Brandon Johnson part makes me really interested.
by Sheffieldbengal on Feb 24, 2010 4:56 PM EST reply actions
Are you kidding me?
All they ever talk about Gresham is how dangerous he is after the catch. He runs away from DB’s all the time, watch some highlights.
If you don't live like you wanna, you live like you shouldn't
you said it
“Talk”
but yeah i have seen highlights of him running away from college defenders
www.fantasydaddy.com
Huh? If they talk it's because they see isn't?
If you don't live like you wanna, you live like you shouldn't
Didn't say he was dangerous but...
running away from a college DB is a different thing to running away from a pro DB. Anthony McCoy has an average of 20 yards per catch and has lots of tape where he dominates the CBs around him for strength and speed but he isn’t fast at all. Plus Gresham played in a spread/space system where he’s always catching in space…. that won’t happen very often in the NFL. (another reason why college TEs tend to struggle in the NFL)
by Sheffieldbengal on Feb 25, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Listen...
I for one don’t want Gresham to be drafted with our 1st pick. I even posted my 1st four ideal picks with McCoy going to us in the 3rd and spending our 1st on Damian Williams. But people here are saying that Gresham would be a complete mistake, and a bust, and a lot of nonsense which I don’t agree with.
I guarantee you, barring he doesn’t get a serious injury in the NFL, and barring he doesn’t land in a team with a terrible offense, that Gresham is going to be huge at the pro level.
If you don't live like you wanna, you live like you shouldn't
Coffman
is only effective if he can effectively block… if we throw him on the field and he can’t effectively run block it has pass written all over it and everyone will be screaming at Brad about predictability.. He has to develop good blocking it’s a must so that teams will not know if its a run or pass when he steps on to the field… This is what true pro TE’s do…
good argument.. however
any of our players are only good when Brat puts them in a position to be successful.. which he doesn’t. When our offense is too lazy to come up with a pass audible, I don’t think it matters if our TE can block or not. Hell, every defense we played knew what play we were running before we ran it, the only trick play of the year was Chad’s fake reverse TD.. which worked! Coffman, whether able to block or not, could find success if we had an offensive coordinator with a brain or offensive coaches who knew how to get the most from their players. Which, we don’t.
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 24, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
Also, there are certain situations like 3rd and long, where the defense knows that you’re going to throw no matter what. You can’t tell me that a TE with sure hands and good route running isn’t going to be a killer tool in a situation like that.
This is our year!
by Carsonorbust on Feb 24, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don't disagree
that Brad has to go and is to predictable… However he’s not going anywhere and player’s coming in and out were a big reason for our predictability..I.E. Brian Leonard comes in and Brian Leonard run’s a screen.. There is to much of this in Brad’s playbook and we are stuck with Brad so the TE could easily be a red flag for a pass if that’s all he can do…
I agree with you, just another give away..
by the by.. use the reply button on the bottom of the posts you want to reply to, just helps keep things organized.
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 24, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Can he block good enough to be in the whole game ?
by JamesShively on Feb 24, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
thats the Question
Thats what he needs to develope this offseason. If he can be an OK blocker, he can play everydown
www.fantasydaddy.com
...
Being an explosive tight end isn’t a necessity — it’s a icing on the cake.
So we should keep Coats and play him all the time. He’s a good blocker, who cares if he can catch and explode!
If you don't live like you wanna, you live like you shouldn't
I agree on TE
I think there will be an adequate TE in the 3rd or 4th round…Heck, Jake Ballard will be there in the 7th round and he can block as well as grab a few passes…I think you take a chance on Coffman stepping up this year…
That said..I still am not set on who to take..Right now I would just say take the best player available…I’m a fan of Taylor Mays the S out of USC, Morgan out of GT, and McClain out of UA… I see the need for upgrading in the passing game and Tate, Gilyard, or Spiller would be a lot of fun…
Guess my jury is still out…I’ll just wait and trust our Owner to make the correct choice…I know he will..
Agreed On TE
Going for a TE in the first is a real stretch as we should wait…..Did Coffman ever block anyone in his college career ? Geez louise, if you played TE you would think you could lay a body on someone .
Yikes
And the Bengals should stick with this philosophy of not having a pass catching tight end because it’s working so well? Brat doesn’t use his tight ends and Brat sucks dogballs, so there you go.
Are we about done with this “We’re a running team!” nonsense? We run because we can’t pass. That was proven time and time again.
Chase Coffman wasn’t good enough to see the field once. Let’s keep that in mind. In the eyes of the Bengals’ coaching staff, Daniel Coats and J.P. Foschi were better options at tight end. And we’re hanging our hat on this dude? I’m sure his blocking has improved, but it must have started out at next to nil if he wasn’t good enough for even minimal PT. We’re making a big mistake if we ignore this position for another year. I can see it now: Another half-assed attempt….grabbing a guy in the 4th round with “potential” who never sees the field. Marco Battaglia, Sean Brewer, Matt Sherry, Coffman….when does it ever end?
We're a running team because it won us games
not simply because our passing sucked. We had the fourth most running attempts of any team in the league, and we were pretty good at it. Not to mention, it turned us into a team that was competing for the third position in the AFC North to the team that swept the division.
This is our year!
by Carsonorbust on Feb 24, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
The defense won us games, very clearly. 19 points a game, we’re a 6-10 team if the defense anything less than exceptional.
We were an offense that ran a lot, enjoyed some success until we hit the red zone, couldn’t pass a lick. I vote for a new identity.
did you forget he was injured?
he wasnt going to make a huge impact as a WR/TE hybrid rookie anyway..
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 25, 2010 1:41 AM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t injured the entire year. Had the coaching staff felt they could use him, he would’ve played. Huge impact? 1. Why the hell not? 2. I would’ve settled with making the active roster a few times. Anything to justify a 3rd round pick.
he was injured before we drafted him..
he was never going to be ready last year. He was basically a WR in college, he wasn’t going to come in and become a starter right away. Remember we actually had good TE depth before camp, coaches saw him as climbing the ranks after getting healthy and putting on enough weight to block in the NFL. His college career does justify a 3rd round pick and now that hes getting healthy and hopefully has been in the weight room, hell be on the active roster..
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 25, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
The running game
also helped us to establish Time of Possession, which gave us an advantage in every game we played by giving our defense a chance to rest, and limiting opportunities for the other teams offense. Nobody is arguing that the strength of the team is Defense, it’s just that a good running game compliments a good defense.
I’m not saying that we shouldn’t try to improve our passing game, but I am saying that we don’t have to be the Indianapolis Colts to win football games.
This is our year!
by Carsonorbust on Feb 25, 2010 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
No, I don’t disagree, but my original point was that we ran out of necessity more than anything. Shit got extremely ugly when we got behind and had to pass, save a few last minute drives in the first half of the season.
Colts get it done in the red zone, run or pass. 19 PPG won’t cut it, especially against a stronger schedule in ’10.
So he was injured and not actually a tight end? Spectacular pick. Yet another instance where the Bengals feel they can afford to draft projects instead of players ready to step in and contribute. Again, how’s the worked out? Too many “ifs” on Coffman. If he puts on weight…if he learns how to block. Maybe Dan Coats learns how to catch and becomes a Pro Bowl TE? All speculation and wishful thinking more than anything.
I agree.
Sure it would have been great to have him out there as we certainly needed a competent TE out there, but it never happened and there’s no sense in overanalzing that it was a bust for him for the 09 season. I think he will have a great ’10 for us.
Draft a TE in the 1st round?
I agree with you – no way. Gresham’s injury (and the mediocre speed described above)raises too many questions to justify that kind of investment so soon after the 3rd rounder spent on Coffman. Watson would be a better bet.
Trade up with St. Louis?
Worst idea ever. Mike Brown had an interminable stand-off with last year’s #6 to get him to back down from his slot; imagine how long the holdout would be for a DT drafted at #1.
Julius Peppers?
Pass. The astronomical sum of money required would be better invested in getting some of our key free agents back after 2010. And isn’t Peppers supposedly wanting to play in a 3-4?
no, he wants to play in a 1-6
play hard for one play.. then take the next 6 off
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Feb 25, 2010 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
The upside though
Is that he’ll still get more sacks than any other player on our team (unless Odom stays healthy). And there’s no salary cap, so the only thing holding us back is Mike Br…….Never mind. Forget I said anything.
This is our year!
by Carsonorbust on Feb 25, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
STAY AWAY FROM TIGHTEND JERMAINE GRESHAM MIKE BROWN..........
Bengal fans……what was the knock on Chase Coffman…..HE CAN’T BLOCK…If you can look at the games when Oklahoma played Texas…..Brian Orakpo and Sergio Kendle MANHANDLED Gresham…to the point where he should be embarrased. What is he going to do when he plays those kinda players week end and out. The AFC NORTH is the most physical division in the NFL and not to mention he tore his knee up in highschool and then tears up the other knee. The good teams do not reach just to fill needs…they draft the best “AVAILABLE” .Golden Tate was the best WR in college football last year. Depending on his 40 he should be there at 21..if not you take the best defensive prospect on your board (Earl Thomas, Taylor Mays, or Carlos Dunlap) In free agency this year you have TO and Benjamin Watson for the taking. The Bengals are on the verge of being ELITE..So Mike Brown…PLEASE DO NOT MESS THIS UP!!!!
Kenneth Lewis Moore
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