Presenting Two Schools of Thought for the Tight End Position in Cincinnati
by Josh Kirkendall on Apr 14, 2010 8:50 PM EDT
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PrintLet's face facts. What to do at Tight End has been a divisive subject amongst us. There's a good reason for it. Historically, before the dawning of the genius that is Bob Bratkowski, the Bengals were once mighty users of the Tight End position in the passing game. Dan Ross set Super Bowl records. Bob Trumpy is a four-time Pro Bowler and even made the 1969 First-Team All-Pro squad. Rodney Holman was a three-time Pro Bowler. While we're at it, let's give Tony McGee some love. What about Marco Battaglia? I'll stop at McGee.
Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis and offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski are going on their eighth together. Of the 101 Tight Ends drafted into the NFL since 2003, the Bengals have drafted two -- Chase Coffman in 2009 and Matt Sherry in 2008. Instead of drafting a young Tight End that's effective in the passing game -- if we're already disregarding Coffman -- the Bengals have elected to rely on guys like Reggie Kelly, Tony Stewart, Matt Schobel, Nate Lawrie, Daniel Coats to name a few. [Your pick: Coats or Battaglia. Who do you got?]. Twice you could attribute to the Bengals making an effort at acquiring a receiving-first tight end. Coffman was drafted last year and the team signed Ben Utecht to an offer sheet that the Indianapolis Colts were unlikely to match in 2008.
Furthermore, now that the Bengals have installed a run-first attitude as their offensive philosophy, there's little reason to believe that Cincinnati will turn about face to draft a receiving-first tight end in the first round this year. In fact, you'd have to think it's a wasted pick, considering they might not even use the tight end in the first place.
Do I think that they won't? No. It just seems unlikely knowing what we know, both historically since 2003 and their offensive shift last season.
But there is another school of thought. And that school of thought does present justifiable points. For one, the Bengals were always a pass-first team that was heavy with wide receivers. Other than adding tight ends in a support capacity, there wasn't a reason to use a high draft pick for a tight end while the team was deep with receivers. Therefore, the talent pool has always been limited in the passing game, the Bengals among tight ends. There was no reason to develop an offensive philosophy that included the tight end in the passing game. At least not in a predominant role.
In the form of a question: Why go after a first or second round tight end when the team could always manage without one while clearly needing other positions previous Bengals squads had to address? Now the Bengals aren't forced to address any specific position. They could draft a safety, a defensive end, a defensive tackle, an offensive guard and yes, even a tight end high in the draft. With a solid tight end in the passing game, the team could finally install that long sought threat by Bengals fan.
I'm not a prophet. The best any of us can do is take the information given to us, dissect it and then give our best opinion. In my best opinion, the Bengals won't draft a tight end through the first two rounds. However, if they do, I'll understand. And maybe now that the team is presented with an opportunity to finally draft a tight end high and use him effectively in the passing game, it might be too big of an opportunity to pass.
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I think there safest option would be to try and acquire an experience TE. Scheffler’s available. If Marshall can be had for a couple of 2s, I would be surprised if Tony could be acquired for a 4th rounder. Fasano probably could be acquired at a reasonable price too.
Scheffler just signed his tender
So he’s up for trade, and would be cheap. He’s one of the better TE out there and could be a big help. While TE was never a big focus here, having a quality one could help us throw off defenses and give Palmer more options.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I wouldn't mind
He plays hard, and is a great receiving TE, he may have some attitude issues but being a Denver fan too, he has shown he can catch.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Apr 16, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm a skeptic
about the whole Jermaine Gresham in the first round idea that two-thirds of the mock drafts out there are foreseeing. True, we haven’t usually drafted TE’s… but the point is that last year we did, and he didn’t see any game action because he couldn’t block well enough. If that’s the case, then what would be the point of picking another TE who’s an average at best blocker in round one? Would Bratkowski (ugh) like him enough to get him involved if we made the investment? I’m not so sure.
Gronkowski would be a better prospect in round two, but my money is on the back injury history scaring them off. Trying to pick up an experienced guy on the cheap (a word MB would love) as speculated on by redberkey above seems more plausible, or going after a less flashy guy who blocks better than Gresham in rounds 3-5.
Gresham's Blocking???
All the top scouts and draftniks say at minimum he’ll be an “effective” or "Adequate " blocker. So how are you basing that he’s at best an average blocker when the professionals say other wise.
No one is saying he’s Reggie Kelley but since when can players not improve in certain areas… The guy he’s being compared too came from the same “effective blocker” label to become the best all around TE in the game today by working on his blocking.
I see too many people say not to take Gresham but take Taylor Mays. So Mays will improve his skills but Gresham won’t… thats completely unfair
It doesn’t personally matter to me who we pick as long as its a mix of BPA and need… but its messed up that some people assume that their personal favorites will improve while the one’s they don’t like won’t.
Point taken, but is he the BPA for the Bengals?
We do not use the TE’s here except for blocking and we have a TE that can catch and not block…
No doubt...
I’m happy as long as they stick to their board and if Gresham is the BPA over everyone else available then you waste no time… I’m personally hoping Thomas is there…
but I have to disagree with you on one thing…
IF we only use TE’s here for blocking then why use a valuable 3rd round pick on a guy that clearly has never played any quality time in a 3 point stance his ENTIRE football life… also with an injury question
You don’t… you grab a blocking TE and try to make him a pass catcher, not the other way around. They knew what they were doing and clearly want more pass catching out of the TE spot.
Then on top of that remember that both Reggie and Ben were perfectly healthy at draft time plus Coats… They pick a TE in the 3rd and still bring in multiple TE UDFAs.. signing one of them
They know what their doing!!!??
I don’t think they know what their doing at all. You got MB who has made the Bengals into one the worst franchises in sports. Our OC, Brat is one of the worst in the league. He is certainly the most predictable. Being a fan, I pray that this has changed since we won the division last year. We can credit Zimmer and Lewis for this. We made it to the Super Bowl and our leading receiver was our TE. The two teams in the Super Bowl last year both have big name receiving TEs. We got beat by the Jets last year by TE D. Keller, and TE O. Daniels from the Texans. How many lessons do MB and Brat need to change their view? One can say you don’t use TEs much in the AFC North, but Heath Miller and Todd Heap are huge targets for their respective QBs.
Gresham might be a risk with his injuries, but there are plenty of other TEs who can do both.
Not saying he can't improve...
but to me, “adequate” in scoutspeak is average for a player who’s a realistic prospect to play at the NFL level. The most common scouting critique I have seen on this score is that competent defenders can gain leverage against him, a review that one doesn’t see with some of the other TE’s in this draft who are less well-regarded than Gresham at receiving.
The point is that we already have already invested a draft pick in a TE whose pass-catching skill set closely relates to Gresham’s. His blocking was below average to say the least… but then couldn’t he improve too?
I agree with you on the composite of BPA and needed skill set. I just suspect that it will be found at #21 at a position other than TE. (Not Mays either, for the record. His below-average football sense is coachable too, but I’d prefer a player who’s starting from a more advanced position.)
you said it yourself...
“Bengals were always a pass-first team that was heavy with wide receivers.”
“Were” is the key word… We are a running team now… We rely on a strong defense now instead of high flying offense…
Things have definitely changed from the times described so why think like its still that way…
TE is much more important in the running and play action game we employ now than in the previous offense.
And why in God’s name do people put selecting a TE on Brat… Everyone knows who makes the BIG decisions, Mr. Mike Brown and until Marvin signs an extension we know its going to stay that way. If Mikey or Marvin wants to do something Brat has to do it, so its a mute point what Brat will or won’t do.
Plus why do people who don’t want a TE keep leaving out the Martellus Bennett trade. Mike Brown did something he NEVER does by trying to trade for a guy mid season.. Safety was lacking after Roy got hurt…. DL was questionable hence the signings of 2 sub par talents… but Brown tried to get a TE. That speaks volumes
"Things have definitely changed from the times described so why think like its still that way…"
Yep. That’s why I thought it was important to point that out as the second school. We — well, at least I — have been so focused on the fact that the Bengals haven’t employed a receiving-first TE in their offense in a long time, that we haven’t sat down to think why.
Blogger at CincyJungle.com -- SB Nation Cincinnati Bengals blog.
by Josh Kirkendall on Apr 14, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
"Plus why do people who don’t want a TE keep leaving out the Martellus Bennett trade"
It’s a good point. But I think there’s a difference of actually acquiring a TE (which is what we focused on) than pushing for. But I agree, when the Bengals were making a move for Bennett, I nearly fell out of my chair.
Blogger at CincyJungle.com -- SB Nation Cincinnati Bengals blog.
by Josh Kirkendall on Apr 14, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
the other thing is...
In my opinion I think Mikey always tries to be like Dad… and thats what is fueling his latest focus on the TE. He remembers pops with greats like Trumpy and Ross, so he’s trying to emulate him more.
Plus the Coffman pick really puts it together… The bengals might be lacking in the scouting department but they knew Chase has never played any considerable time out of the 3 point stance in his entire football life but still picked him with a valueable pick… and he had an injury question.
They clearly are trying to do something with TE
RE:
Agreed on all points.
Furthermore, a discussion for another day, would be focusing on how similar Mike Brown is to his dad. IMHO, while Paul Brown was one of the greatest, if not the greatest, innovator in the sport, I don’t think he could win with today’s football environment and players. The question is though, how similar is Mike to Paul today. I’ll bet is far closer than a lot of us think.
Blogger at CincyJungle.com -- SB Nation Cincinnati Bengals blog.
by Josh Kirkendall on Apr 14, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
You are absolutely correct,
except for judging talent… About the only difference there. I said this in one of my posts.
"tries"
lol… thats why i said tries. I don’t like to get to personal on Mikey boy but he tries to be something he’s not. His dad got his skills from coaching and implementing real football workings. Mikey did it by just watching and never really earned his stripes. Mikey never studied the real workings of how football works on the field. Thats why he’s a hell of a businessman but horrible football mind.
What’s worse is that Katie is going to take over some day and she has the same more business – less football training as ole Mikey boy.
lol
yeah but we know that playing a sport and coaching or running a team are two totally different things… aka his airness and the great one.
I even question him playing football giving him some football smarts after the great Hard knocks Idea of moving a LB to TE almost a month before the season starts… I still shake my head on that one
Shhhhhh,
Don’t type that out to loud, he might here you. You just might piss him off… He knows exactly what he’s doing.
lol
With MB in power, I seriously wonder why I’m such a huge Bengals fan. I would love to see the teams financial statements to see how good of a businessman MB is. Anyone know the net worth of the franchise? Anyone know how much the franchise costs? Any financials would be helpful.
I think I heard about a year ago
that the Bengals franchise is worth 800 million. I could be wrong though…
Scheffler
Denver’s Bleacher Report just posted an article about Tony’s signing and the three top teams that were in need of a TE that he could get traded to. Cincinnati was one. Baltimore was three. Wonder if the front office is even giving it some consideration. Scheffler’s a proven pass catcher, a midwestern boy (Western Michigan) and probably could be acquired at a reasonable price.
would be a nice addition
could easily work them to give him up for a fourth… hell throw them coats and our tradeable 4th.. then re sign reggie
RE:
The funny thing is that I intended this to be a post about Scheffler and it morphed into this. I wouldn’t have a problem with Scheffler.
Blogger at CincyJungle.com -- SB Nation Cincinnati Bengals blog.
by Josh Kirkendall on Apr 14, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade For Scheffler
yea we need to trade for Scheffller quick he’s only 26 and is a great option for us to trade a 3rd or package a 4th and 5th for him.. If we almost traded a 2nd for Martellus Bennett before the deadline why not trade a 3rd for Scheff.. I thought there would be way more speculation of this move
your forgetting one thing
He’d only be on a 1 yr deal so you could lose him after one year…. So how much money does he want? If he wants to be paid like a Top 10 TE that could be a problem and definitely not worth 2 picks…
He would be a great addition if he’s looking for a fair pay contract and giving up no more than a 4th rounder
How about this trade
Dolphins want to unload Ted Ginn and his pricey contract. What if the Bengals approached the Dolphins willing to take Ginn if they included Fasano in the deal ? We get an experienced blocking TE who can also catch who is only 26 and a 25 year old kick returner who still is young enough to develop at WR.Of course I’m dreaming. When was the last time MB traded a draft pick for a veteran player, let alone two ??? After all draft picks are precious and always pan out. Klingler,ASmith,Pollack,Perry,RWilson,etc.
Fasano aint happening
I wouldn’t be totally against Ginn coming here but the Dolphins aren’t parting with Fasano… IF Fasano was gone then they’d be left with an undrafted rookie from last year and two other guys that have spent more time on the practice squad then on a NFL roster…
Lowering expectations
Way back when, I wanted us to get a pass-catching TE. Now, I’ll be happy if we can just get a good TE.
In my ideal world, we’d have a Saints-like offense, because I prefer that kind of high-flying football…but if we’re going to be a physical, run-first team, we need a blocking TE, albeit one that’s competent at receiving. McCoy or Moeaki in the second or third, please. Likewise, we need better RB depth, some sort of change at the FB position, and o-line depth. (I’m increasingly open to Pouncey in the first.)
by Big Sky Bengal on Apr 15, 2010 12:06 AM EDT reply actions
Run-First Offense A desire or need?
As much as I want to believe that Marvin and Brat had a gameplan that crafted a run-first offense to contend in the AFC North, I have to default to it developing because we didn’t have the high powered WR group or any faith in our (at the time) unproven O line.
So do you put the Palmer on the pedistal for the season to see just how many sacks he can take waiting for a WR (aka Chad) to find an opening? Or do you switch gears and use your new RB that shows promise and work on running blocks?
No. I think Coffman was supposed to come in and play, but didn’t because his blocking was sub par and then he got injured. Simspon is still in development. Utecht was a bust. I could go on, but it all points to a team that wanted to use Carson but couldn’t, and switch to a Running gameplan. It worked great until our opponents created game plans to reduce it’s effectiveness.
I believe the draft will indicate what kind of team we will be in 2010, and with our schedule, do you honestly believe run first will rule the day?
i agree...
…I think we were run first mostly out of necessity. A a deep but inexperienced offensive line combined with a shortage of downfield targets = run first. Do I think the Bengals will continue to run a lot—if it wins games sure. Do we need to have some flashes of 2005 if we are going to be a Super Bowl contender—yep—and that means getting Palmer more protection and targets. Does it have to be a TE? Not necessarily.
We do need to address the positon. Do we need to use a top pick? I don’t think so but we need someone beyond what we have.
Bill Williamson of the Denver Post (ESPN) wrote that the Broncos would like a 3rd for Scheffler but probably would take a 4th. If that’s the case, the Bengals should make that trade. They have an extra 4th due to compensation for SAndrews. They aren’t going to get more value out of that 4th round pick then Scheffler.
Gronkowski is the answer
Gronkowski is a beast. He can catch and block, and he will be a value pick because of the injury issues. I live in Tucson, went to the UA, saw every one of Gronkowski’s games, and can without any doubt tell you the guy is going to be a great pro.
I only hope my Bengals can pick him up in the second or third round. That would be awesome.
Believe it or not
I am willing to give Coats another go. He actually has all the physical skills, and it seems to me he works well as a blocker. He can line up in the backfield a la Reggie and play fullback. He can get open off the line of scrimmage and he has reasonable speed. The dude just needs to work on his hands. Seriously, if he can be trusted as a pass-catcher, he is a pretty good option.
Does anyone else still see this potential in him, or has everyone given up for good?
If Coats can learn to catch & hold onto the ball, then a combo of Coats (good blocker too) and Coffman (still learning) with Kelly (mentor and can contribute one more year) is OK with me for 2010.
by California Bengal Fan on Apr 15, 2010 4:23 PM EDT reply actions
shunned…
just kidding of course, but I’m guessing that Coats Island that you’re on is a very lonely place.
This is our year!
by Paul Cannon on Apr 16, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
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