Clayton Ranking NFL QB's: Where Does Palmer Sit
by Jason Garrison on Aug 31, 2010 7:57 PM EDT
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PrintLet me paint you a picture with my imagination brush. Carson Palmer is standing in a room alone with you. In this room there are three doors. One door is labeled "elite". Payton Manning just poked his head out of that door and asked you for change for a dollar so he and Drew Brees can play pool. The next door is labeled "eh" and you notice Jay Cutler laying outside of the door in the fetal position, crying because he was sent to the "eh" room and not the "elite" room (and by crying, I mean he's demanding a trade because he thinks he's better than eh). The last door is labeled "hit or miss". From behind the door, you can hear the voices of Josh Freeman and Trent Edwards discussing who's team is worse. Palmer looks at you and asks you where he should go.
What do you tell him?
Don't answer that quite yet. Let me tell you what an expert thinks first and why. If it was John Clayton who was in that room with Palmer, Clayton would tell him to head to the "elite" room where he could hang out with the likes of Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers and Ben Roethlisberger. That's a pretty solid list of signal callers. One may ask, why does Palmer deserve to be in that room with the season that he had last year? Clayton explains.
The additions of Terrell Owens, Jermaine Gresham and Jordan Shipley could allow Palmer to relive his 4,000-yard days. Marvin Lewis prefers running the ball, but Palmer would love for the Bengals' offense to open up.
Here's why I would put him in the same spot that Clayton does. He's got the talent and ability to play just as good as anybody else in that room with him. He's got a good arm, he's smart, he's accurate and he can read a defense. Those are all the things required of a quarterback to win in the NFL. All he needs is the supporting cast to allow him to do his job the best that he can. Last year, he didn't have that. He didn't have a deep threat, after the loss of Chris Henry, he didn't have a reliable no. 2 receiver and he didn't have a tight end. This year, he has all of those things and if the offensive line can give him time to throw like they did in the first half of the Buffalo game, Palmer can make any fantasy football player without him on their roster kick themselves.
Now answer the question. What room would you put Palmer in?
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I very much agreed with Clayton's QB rankings
I dont like the term “Elite” for his top level QBs. But All of the guys he did call Elite can win a playoff game and or superbowl. I would only call Manning, Brady, Brees Elite QBs. but there are about 14 QBs that could win a superbowl. Carson is one of them
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by Joe Goodberry on Aug 31, 2010 8:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. The elite are the very best of the very best. Carson isn’t there, because there’s room there for maybe 5 at the absolute most, and really only 3 are truly obviously safe to put there. But he’s not far behind (when healthy and protected of course, but that’s true of any QB).
But he’s definitely in the “very good” room with the likes of Romo, Rivers, Turdburger, and several others who aren’t far behind them.
Romo is only considered elite cuz he plays for Dallas
Manning, Brees, Brady, Palmer, Rivers in that order
" I don't lie, I tell a different version of the truth."
by Purple City Middie on Aug 31, 2010 8:37 PM EDT reply actions
I think he had too many "elite" guys.
14 elite QB’s in the league? That sorta makes it less special to be elite.
Manning, Brees, and Brady are my “elites.”
But I do think that Palmer belongs at about # 10 right now and he has a chance to move up.
"Before I write I let my mind go blind and let the Lord do His thing. " -Tupac Shakur
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it looks like work." -Thomas Edison
It's worth noting
that Clayton is calling this the “golden age of quarterbacks.” Maybe he has too many, but at least he’s acknowledging that there seem to be a lot of good quarterbacks these days and not just assuming that the top half of starters are automatically “elite.”
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by Pardon_My_French on Aug 31, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Palmer Can Be Special...
…because he possesses all the tangibles you want in a QB. First, he’s smart and can master an intricate offense scheme. Second, he can read a defense like an English major. Third, he’s got a cannon (still) for an arm and can make every throw out there. His only drawback is his scrambling ability but the other talents make this a minimal obstacle. However, he’s human and like all QB’s he needs a good OL. He will be only as good as his OL makes him this year, but with the talent around him, I wouldn’t be at all surprised that barring injury, he will be 2011 Pro Bowl.
I didn't answer
I have 4 doors in my room
Elite, Franchise but not elite, Eh, and Hit or miss.
I only have 3 active Elites in Manning, Brees, Farve. River and Rodgers are knocking on that door, saying we will buy the next round if you let us in.
There are a number of guys in the FNE room: Palmer, Brady, Flacco, Rothlisberger, McNabb, Romo, Ryan, Manning E. Basically the teams that have FNE QBs shouldn’t bother looking to improve because there are very few guys out there who are better and they are employed.
Brady is elite.
Just stop it. I know you hate him. A lot of folks do. But just stop it, because Tom Brady is a sure-fire, without-a-doubt, three-ring-wearing, first-ballot hall-of-famer. End of story. He’s kind of a douche, but he’s an all-time great. Period.
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by Pardon_My_French on Aug 31, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I agree he is a sure-fire first ballot hall of famer. But the NE is alsmost as good without him as they are with him. Does Indy go 12-4 with Jim Sorgi instead of Manning?No Does Arizona go to the play-offs with Leinhart? no Does CIncy have a shot at winning the DIvision without Palmer? No, But New England can go 11-5 with Matt Cassel. And went to the AFC Championship with Drew Bledsoe. I am giving credit where credit is due, and the Patriots success is much more on Belichek than on Brady.
CincinnatiCyanide88 is right
Brady is elite. His team and surroundings have made things easier for him, but he still has made the most of the situation. And I don’t think it’s fair to leave him off that list simply because his team is/was good. If that is the case, Brees doesn’t belong on the list either because Sean Payton made them successful.
Some of Brady’s accomplishments:
-most touchdown passes in a regular season (50)
-highest single-game completion percentage
-the highest winning percentage of any quarterback ever during his first 100 starts
-the longest streak of games with 3 or more touchdown passes
-Largest touchdown to interception difference: 42 (2007)
-NFL record for most consecutive wins in post season: 10
-Only quarterback to have 3 passing touchdowns in 10 straight games
-97–30 (regular season), 111–34 (career) as a starter
-3 Super Bowl victories
Those certainly look like elite stats to me.
As much as it pains me
you have to consider Big Ben elite. He may not be the pocket passer we love to see IE: CP9 but he makes plays when they need him to.
He has 2 rings nuff said
by Throw the ball on Sep 1, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
No
Ben Roethlisberger has not thrown for 50 TDs in a single season yet, or posted a 117.2 passer rating yet, or thrown for 30,800+ yards yet.
If Roethlisberger wants elite status consideration, his production would need to continue to climb over the span of his career.
I would place Roethlisberger in the FNE Room along with Palmer.
Shown here are the NE Pats passing stats since TOm Brady took over sorted by rating Without looking it up, which is Matt Cassels?
Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Rate
398 578 68.9 4,806 8.3 50 8 117.2
371 565 65.7 4,398 7.8 28 13 96.2
288 474 60.8 3,692 7.8 28 14 92.6
334 530 63 4,110 7.8 26 14 92.3
327 516 63.4 3,693 7.2 21 11 89.4
319 516 61.8 3,529 6.8 24 12 87.9
264 413 63.9 2,843 6.9 18 12 86.5
373 601 62.1 3,764 6.3 28 14 85.7
Rothlisberger throws for more yards per year than Brady, and has 2 rings.
Rothlisberger has 2 seasons over 100 rating compared to Brady’s 1 and, in 4 of Rothlisberger’s 6 seasons he has a better rating than Brady’s 96.2 rating in his second best season.
As for the 50 tds, 12 of those came in games against Buffalo and Washington which NE won by a combined margin of 146-24. While I have no problem with running up a score in a pro game, it begins to get a little absurd to keep throwing TDS half way through the 4th quarter when up 38-0.
So Brady's not elite because he runs up the score and is on a good team?
You make so many excuses for why he shouldn’t be considered elite, I’m thinking you might be a Colts fan.
If you count Brady’s rookie season where he had 3 attempts and his 2008 injury season where he had 11 attempts, then yes Roethlisberger’s 3217 yards per season beats Brady’s 3084. If you take those two seasons out, like any rational person who realizes he didn’t even play a full game in either of those years would, his yards per year average jumps to 3845.
3SB rings > 2SB rings
Yes. Ben has better QB ratings. Which is why I haven’t closed the door on the idea that he could potentially be considered elite in the future.
The Patriots and the Colts have dominated the AFC over the past decade. It is in no small part thanks to the excellent play by the respective QBs.
I agree that Brady is excellent, I just feel elite is a little bit better. I think there are 2-3 elite QBs, which is the top 10% of starters. I think there are about 15 good-excellent QBs.
As for the number of excuses, I am trying to counter the reasons given for why he is elite.
I look at it this way. I try to imagine what QB if placed on the Bengals would have won a superbowl under the Marvin Lewis era. In the end I think that Manning or Brees would have and Brady would not, nor would Rothlisberger or Eli.
I would say the Patriots, Colts, and Steelers have dominated the AFC over the past decade, but I think Palmer is better than Rothlisberger. I think Brady is better than Palmer but not on par with Manning.
Well, it would seem we have differing opinions
about what makes a QB elite.
Fox Sports’ Jason Whitlock put out a list of “The 10 greatest QBs of all-time” back in February. This list is basically the QB’s I would consider elite.
John Elway, Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, Steve Young, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton
I wouldn’t necessarily restrict it to just 10, but they are the names I associate with elite.
I disagree with the notion that the QB of the best team is automatically elite. You see this more often in college football. I want to see what the team does without you. The Patriots finished 11-5 without noticable drop-off satisitcally at the QB with Matt Cassel. Compare that to a guy not on the list that I think should be, Kurt Warner. Warner took 2 moribund franchises to the Super bowl. After he left STL, the Franchise nosedived to the point that they have had 3 top2 picks in the draft in a row, while he was taking the AZ Cardnials to the SB.
I admit that my opinion is partially subjective, but I think that Belichick makes Brady a better QB than 80-90% of NFL starting QBs, but that given any of the QBs that I have in the FNE catagory, Belichick would get the same results, while I think that Brady would not have led the Saints or Colts to the Superbowl.
As for which years to count
When the arguement is made that Rothlisberger is not elite, because he has not thrown for more yards than Brady in fewer years, the years Brady did not play are irrelevant, because when they total the yards at the end of each players careers, Rothlisberger is on pace to have more.
Lets put it this way..
The door is open.. he just needs to walk through it. Consistently.
by 80%OFTHETIMEIMRIGHTEVERYTIME on Aug 31, 2010 11:07 PM EDT reply actions
Carson in 2010.
I have written about this before.
Carson is the one who decides this year is going to be MVP/Pro Bowl/Super Bowl 2010, or could have, should have but failed to execute 2010. The fact is, he’s got absolutely no excluses, so it is up to him and his ablilities.
2010 - The Year of the Tiger.
I agree if the line gives him enough time this season we will really find out just how good Palmer is.
I liked what I saw in Buffalo. He looked like he had that swagger back running the no-huddle, but cmon it was Buffalo. If we look like this against the Pats I’m going to be incredibly happy.
by Throw the ball on Sep 1, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
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