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Around SBN: On Hazards And Hulks And Tigers, Oh My!

It's the O-Line, Stupid

FOXBORO MA - SEPTEMBER 12:  Carson Palmer #9 of the Cincinnati Bengals passes as teammate Bobbie Williams #63 holds off Vince Wilfork #75 of the New England Patriots during the NFL season opener on September 12 2010 at Gillette Stadium in Foxboro Massachusetts. The Patriots defeated the Bengals 38-24.  (Photo by Elsa/Getty Images)

A shout-out to Seapit for putting his finger on the nub of the problem, the offensive line. For anyone who is serious about answering the question, what's wrong with the Cincinnati Bengals offense, the story begins and (largely) ends there. But we'll get to that "largely" later

Earlier this week, Doc contrasted this year's offense with the offense of five years ago:

Back when the Bengals offense was scoring lots of points, nobody in stripes talked about what the defense took away from them. The offense discussed taking what it wanted.

Yup, they did. But that was five years ago. It's 2010 and that ship hasn't just sailed, it sank. No matter how long we stand on the dock and wait, pining for our beloved 2005 offense lost to the Great Gridiron Ocean, it ain't coming back.

Star-divide

The 2005 offense could dictate to opposing teams primarily because that year, the Bengals had arguably the best offensive line in football. This year? Well, let's put it charitably: we don't have the best offensive line in football.

For those not feeling charitable, or not convinced, let's go down the line. This year, we have just one survivor from that great 2005 line, Bobbie Williams. And while Bobbie remains one equal temper of heroic hearts, he too no longer has that "strength which in old days moved heaven and earth." Of his four companions this year, which of them, if transported back in time, would oust one of 2005's starters from the position they play now?

Would Andrew Whitworth unseat Levi Jones? Not in 2005.

Nate Livings over Eric Steinbach? Nope.

Kyle Cook vs. Buckethead? No contest.

And do I even need to name the respective right tackles? Heck, there are people calling for us to resign Big Willie right now.

Not only wouldn't they be starting, I'm not sure half these guys would even be on the team. Does Dennis Roland or Cook or Livings make it even as a backup in '05? I don't mean to run these guys down (mainly because any of them could probably kill me with a good hard stare) but that's how good the line was that year. And that's why the first thing the Bengals did in the following offseason was to secure the two tackles with big bucks deals. Of course, we all know how that worked out, unfortunately.

Carson Palmer is done? I guarantee you, put him back behind the 2005 o-line and he'll "done" his way right into the playoffs and set passing records doing it.

Now, all of that said, it shouldn't be as big a problem as it is. The o-line may not be great, but it's serviceable. It can run block decently and pass protect at least long enough to allow a short-to-medium-ranged passing game, especially with some misdirection and play-action (like we saw on the drive that ended in Cedric Benson's first TD pass last Sunday) mixed in.

However -- and here's where we get to that aforementioned "largely" -- there's one guy who doesn't get that 2005 is over. And he's the one guy who's in position to allow that illusion to do maximum damage to the team's chances this year. That man is Bengals offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski.

"I think they can; we‘ve got to get better," Bratkowski said. "I think we’re a little more balanced in throwing it this year. And we’ve got to do a better job in the protection, where last year there was a heavy focus on the run. And less exposed in protection.

"They’re exposed more. They’ve got to get used to that element where it’s not all play-action and it’s a little more attempting to get the ball downfield to our skill guys."

Somebody at PBS has to stage an intervention. Bob, buddy, pal, they aren't going to suddenly get better. Tinkerbell is not going to fly down and sprinkle them with magic pixie dust and make them the 2005 o-line. They are what they are, and if you use what they are, you can succeed. But if you keep trying to force this pet Air Coryell-inspired vertical passing game on this team, it will fail. You can get your precious "chunks" but it's going to be more situational. You can still dictate, but "patience" is the watchword. Work the underneath routes and the flat. Use the run to set up the play action and the pass. You have your own version of Wes Welker and Wayne Chrebet in Jordan Shipley, and a stud-in-the-making TE in Jermaine Gresham. Use them. And when Chad and T.O. come crying, point them at the scoreboard, because there will be more W's than L's on it.

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Although it should be pointed out the current defense is better than the '05 unit.

So that evens things out a bit. This year’s offense simply doesn’t have to score as much.

by no kidding on Sep 28, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

But it's not going to keep up with the high powered offenses that we have to face
“I think we’re a little more balanced in throwing it this year

As for Brat’s assessment of our run/pass balance, that may be the case but that doesn’t help if those passes aren’t caught and turned into completions.

by Oregonbengalsfan on Sep 28, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well said

The ’05 line was fantastic at pass blocking, ( I think the run blocking is remembered a bit to fondly, most of the running was done against 6-7 men in the box, and the short yardage game was questionable). This O-line is horrible at pass blocking, strong but slow, and the running game really only got going last year using what amounted to 7 offensive linemen (5+ the Collins, Foschi jumbo). This killed the passing game, how hard is it to cover 3 receivers with 4-5 DBs.

If we’re going to take a step forward, it is going to be with Andre Smith. This could make things worse, but if he plays to 80% of his talent, there is a noticeable improvement over Roland. This may take time, but I think it is worth the risk.

by R.F. Mehl on Sep 28, 2010 9:25 PM EDT reply actions  

The old saying is, no one's loved as much as the backup quarterback.

Around this blog, it’s the backup right tackle.

Out of curiosity, since you mentioned it, just how many games are we to risk losing in order to accomplish this great transformation in Andre Smith?

by no kidding on Sep 28, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

to true. this is the school of thought i've subscribed to as well...

it was the right idea drafting an OT high but you just don’t draft RT in the top 10. especially one who is a fat piece of shit with no respect for the game.

"Now onto more important things: Punching Errorlando Cabrerror in the fucking tits." -Geki

by GrooveLeg on Sep 28, 2010 9:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Andre must play.

This team struggles with 3 and 1 . They did better last week, But as some said earlier 80% of smith is better than all of Roland. Wish we got Alan Faneca for Guard.

by jampull1 on Sep 28, 2010 9:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Andre has to be better tan Roland.....Right?

:(

In Zim We Trust......Collaros for Heisman...An Avid Reader of Cincyjungle.com

by TennBengalfan on Sep 29, 2010 4:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

than

In Zim We Trust......Collaros for Heisman...An Avid Reader of Cincyjungle.com

by TennBengalfan on Sep 29, 2010 4:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot about Steinbach and Williams being on that team

Now I’m remembering Steinbach standing over Palmer as he lay on the ground after being hit by Kimo VonCheapshot who rushed past Steinbach on that play. Not bitter about it though…. I saw Bobbie Williams wobble off the field at halftime against the Panthers and it was painful to watch. I think my 80 yr old grandma could have scurried off the field faster than he was moving. I’m worried he might actually be the real liability on this line. Assuming that was his man hitting Palmer in the picture above, that’s at least twice now he let guys get to the QB with the sack this last game against the Panthers.

by Bengal mayhem on Sep 28, 2010 9:41 PM EDT reply actions  

On Bratkowski, you have 100% hit the nail on the head

Never have I seen a coach less able to use what is available rather than “what he thinks it should be”.

And this goes back way before this year. Last year they “redesigned” the playbook to feature the run. Then what happens in training camp? Two TE’s go down, and we hear "A lot of what we put in was 2 TE set plays. Seriously, how dumb is that? It’s a goddamn football game, and people get hurt, and nothing is ever going to go according to plan all the time on the field. So he compensates by going to unbalanced lines, which of course will work for a short time, until people adjust to them. We were still running unbalanced sets when people were exploding it from weeks 10-16.

This is not a new thing:

2008 – Palmer goes down. Did they adjust to what Fitzpatrick did well at all? Did they feature bootlegs, scrambles, QB options? No.
2007 – Rudi is running for minimal gains, even after people start Cover-2’ing Chad and TJ to death. Where were the slants, the screens, the play action passes?
2006 – How long into 2006 were they trying to be the 2005 Bengals, minus several key pieces (Braham at center, Perry as 3rd down option)?

This could go on, but the truth is, Brat is horrible about going offbook, particularly in game. If his plan, such as it is, gets shut down, there is no option B, C, or D. There’s just hammer option A and then blame the failure on their “failure to execute”. And teams have literally 8 years of tape to watch on Brat, to know how formulaic this offense’s tendencies are.

I think a new offensive coordinator would, at the very least, accomplish 2 important goals:
1) It would force the offense – particularly Palmer, who has not had another offensive plan in his entire career – to see and learn a new system, and maybe teach them some new things and/or focus his determination, which is considerable, on his mechanics and calls again, and
2) It would introduce uncertainty in the minds of all of the Bengals’ opponents. In a game of inches and seconds, that is so so important and useful.

by rorschach1979 on Sep 28, 2010 10:02 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Great post

Best explanation ever of why Brat is the problem.

by BonnieBengal on Sep 28, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

I think giving carson another ocoordinator would let him unleash that golden arm of his

For here all are one

by bcbengalfan on Sep 28, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have to agree

How could it be any worse by adding a new OC? It would make a huge difference!

In Zim We Trust......Collaros for Heisman...An Avid Reader of Cincyjungle.com

by TennBengalfan on Sep 29, 2010 4:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

It will never happen

Brat and Mike Brown are very close. No way he’s fired midseason, especially if we’re winning.

by Mexal on Sep 29, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed, as bad as I hate it

In Zim We Trust......Collaros for Heisman...An Avid Reader of Cincyjungle.com

by TennBengalfan on Sep 29, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

RE: Brat

I’ve been saying it for years as well. Could not agree with you more. He is the WORST at not only halftime adjustments, but also to playing to our strengths. You summed it up pretty well, but i just wanted to comment on how dead-on you were.

it comes down to mind over matter....if you don't mind, it won't matter

by TruWhoDey on Sep 29, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the kudos

I didn’t think I was the only one that thought of it this way, but it’s nice to know people think i can and did sum it up well.

I have to agree with Mexal and TennBengalfan, in that I do not see Brat being let go mid-season. And with any form of “success”, I question a move in the offseason as well. The time to boot him was after 2008, but there was the whole “Palmer being out” excuse. I honestly don’t know why, though, that a move would not be considered just for freshness of ideas. It worked wonders on the defense when it was struggling – Zimmer was a find of exceptional worth.

If they are truly dedicated to improving, all aspects of the team should be examined – from the players to the coaching to the personnel (like training and medical) to the facilities to the travel plans and provisions. Anything that can be improved or that could help team performance should be lifted above mediocre, and if that isn’t working, re-examined. I would like to see someone say Brat is above mediocrity and try to keep a straight face.

by rorschach1979 on Sep 29, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

You've got to think

That there is a good OC out there somewhere having wet dreams of what he could do with our offense.

by Oregonbengalsfan on Sep 29, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

And where is Andre Smith?

I haven’t spotted him at McDonald’s….

by rapher on Sep 28, 2010 10:08 PM EDT reply actions  

He was at Church's chicken

In Zim We Trust......Collaros for Heisman...An Avid Reader of Cincyjungle.com

by TennBengalfan on Sep 29, 2010 5:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

This would explain why Bratkowski's...

rating on madden is “WR-Route Running and Catching +1”. I was expecting it to be “Team Win -2”. Zing…

by baconbitz309 on Sep 28, 2010 10:35 PM EDT reply actions  

STOP PLACING BLAME

PLAY CALLING PLAY CALLING. Bratkowski’s offense is too predictable I can always tell what we are about to do before we do it. SO I know other teams are all over it. Need to call touchdown potential plays everydown

by Makin Edwards on Sep 28, 2010 10:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Hmm

John Thorton’s response to Big Willie’s tweet “Guess where I am” showing a pic of him and Marvin

JohnThornton Tell Marv 2 bring us both back. U at RT, me as GM. I’ll give u both new deals RT @WillAnderson79: Guess where I am http://twitpic.com/2sxolk

by Oregonbengalsfan on Sep 28, 2010 11:13 PM EDT reply actions  

What strikes me about the o-line

Look at the emphasis we’ve placed on each position.

At LT, Whit is a second-rounder. At RT, Andre (who we clearly wanted to start at that position) is a first-rounder. But the interior…Cook and Livings were UDFAs, Bobbie was a FA, and we took Hudson in the fifth and Stephens in the seventh. We haven’t drafted a guard high since Steinbach, and the highest center we’ve drafted under Marvin was Luigs (fourth round).

Does Marvin not value interior OL, and thus not draft them high? Or is it MB?

by Big Sky Bengal on Sep 28, 2010 11:45 PM EDT reply actions  

I kind of agree.

But do we really need more Andre Smith’s?

by no kidding on Sep 29, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking about this same thing this morning

The investment in the OL has been weaker compared to other teams like NE, NYJ, BLT and even Cleveland that have multiple top round picks starting and have, in some cases, for a couple years. Overall, the NFL in general doesnt value interior lineman as much and it shows by where the majority are drafted.

That being said, I would like to see the Bengals invest more in the OL than they have. I don’t mind the 4th, 5th and 7th rounders on guys who are expected to be backups (Luigs, Hudson and Stephens), I would just like to see them continue to build the OL in the top couple rounds of the draft.

Featherman – Steinbach was a LG at Iowa. Robert Gallery was the LT.

by Cedric Benson Boat Party on Sep 29, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're right, of course.

Guards and centers generally aren’t valued as much as tackles—but I think there’s a healthy middle ground between “drafting them super-high” and “making due with UDFAs and maybe a middle-rounder every three or four years.” If we’d gotten a few guards and a center in rounds two through four (instead of the Irons/Simpson-esque picks) during Marvin’s tenure, we’d be in much better shape.

by Big Sky Bengal on Sep 29, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just think if the FO did a better job at looking over Antonio Bryant!

How much money could have been spent securing some bad ass O lineman

from february:

The top 10
1. Marcus McNeill, T, Chargers*
2. Jammal Brown, T, Saints*
3. Jared Gaither, T, Ravens (RFA)
4. Harvey Dahl, G, Falcons*
5. Logan Mankins, G, Patriots*
6. Tyson Clabo, T, Falcons*
7. Chad Clifton, T, Packers (UFA)
8. Charlie Johnson, T, Colts*
9. Mike Gandy, T, Cardinals (UFA)
10. Rex Hadnot, G, Browns (UFA)

Read more: http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2010-02-24/2010-free-agent-preview-offensive-linemen#ixzz10wWiGJMk

2010 - The Year of the Tiger.

by UpStateMike on Sep 29, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree.

If you look at the 2005 O-line, we had two first rounders, two second rounders and a third rounder. Perhaps that was a bit of overkill, but we just don’t have the talent right now. Andre Smith’s inability to get on the field isn’t helping.

Typically, the Bengals draft tackles and convert them—2005 being case and point. Everyone of those guys was a college tackle except Braham. I have no problem not drafting guards, its just that we need to have athletic tackles that can play all positions.

by goffchile on Sep 29, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carson Palmer Hasn't Been A Good Quarterback Since His Elbow Blew Out In 2008

After he tore up his elbow in 2008, which cost him most of the year, his accuracy and his arm strength fell off. His passes averaged about 7 yards per attempt from 2004-2007 were 6.7, 7.5, 7.2, and 7.8. From 2008 on they’ve been 5.7, 6.6, and 5.8. His 2004-2007 completion percentages were 60.9, 67.8, 62.3, and 64.9. Since the elbow injury they’ve been 58.1, 60.5, and 56.6. The bright line between good Carson Palmer and terrible Carson Palmer was that 2008 season when he reported needed Tommy John surgery but opted not to have it. Since then, he’s been terrible…scattershot accuracy, weaker arm, and an inability to run the passing offense effectively, and those are things clearly visible in the game tape.

The Bengals have assembled an offensive line capable of running a very solid rushing attack and they’ve upgraded the receiving corps, and yet Palmer is worse now than he was last season. Simple fact is, it’s not the line or the receiving corps that’s the problem…it’s Carson Palmer’s arm that he refused to get fixed in 2008. And it’s killing the Bengals offense.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Sep 29, 2010 1:34 AM EDT reply actions  

I do think the arm is a huge issue whether Palmer admits it or not

but you have to see that he is getting veryy little protection from the right side, another huge problem IMO

In Zim We Trust......Collaros for Heisman...An Avid Reader of Cincyjungle.com

by TennBengalfan on Sep 29, 2010 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, Palmer slipped pretty hard in 2007 and looked bad in the few games before he hurt his elbow in 2008.

But I agree. It’s him. He’s still missing throws when he has time and the mental errors are just puzzling. Buddy was running out of excuses last year, yet here we are…

by bodacio zk on Sep 29, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

O-Line

In this day and age with the spread offense the lineman have changed. The quarterback has got to be able to move in the pocket and scramble when things break down. Palmer is a statue just like Drew Bledsoe, he does not have the athletic ability to move in the pocket. I saw Brady against the Jets bend over, and put his hand on the ground to shake off a defender, come up, and fire a strike. Palmer couldn’t shake a tackle to save his life. If he gets touched, he goes down. He has no toughness. He looks like he is terrified to take a hit. Show some muscle and shake some defenders then that will make them gun shy about tackling you. He looks like a kid that is a catcher or shortstop that is afraid to get hit by the baseball.

by D-Day77 on Sep 29, 2010 3:07 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree on this...no toughness

he really does go down very easy

In Zim We Trust......Collaros for Heisman...An Avid Reader of Cincyjungle.com

by TennBengalfan on Sep 29, 2010 5:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t we all know he didn’t have any of these abilities in his first year playing? As for lack of toughness; why didn’t he just bow out then after the first injury? or the second? Why does he still, at times, hold on to the ball and hold on and hold on waiting/looking for receivers to get open and take unnecessary hits.

by GrizzlyRider on Sep 29, 2010 5:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bad decisions obviously

In Zim We Trust......Collaros for Heisman...An Avid Reader of Cincyjungle.com

by TennBengalfan on Sep 29, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

If only there was some magical elixer

they could all take that would make them stronger and better. Oh wait. That’s been banned.

2010 - The Year of the Tiger.

by UpStateMike on Sep 29, 2010 5:48 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm not convinced it's Palmer

TO worked out with him all summer in Cali. If Palmers arm sucked so bad why would he sign here for nothing?

by JungleJ on Sep 29, 2010 8:18 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Are you suggesting there were teams knocking down TO’s door? I think they’re just both kind of stuck with him at this point.

by bodacio zk on Sep 29, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

FIRE BRATSUCKSKI

If the Bengals win by 3 TDs or more this weekend I will abandon my campaign. If they win by 10 or less I expect everyone on here to post FIRE BRATSUCKSKI next Monday. If they lose then I am going out to get velcro shoe, a mouth guard, & a bike helmet because the short bus will be picking me up Monday for the nut house! WHODEY

by Vman in Germany on Sep 29, 2010 8:33 AM EDT reply actions  

Short Passing Game

I believe now it is just as important to have a short passing game as well as a good running game to set up the deep pass. It just seems like to me that Brat is always trying to have deep routes and take time to develop. As mentioned earlier we need more HB passes TE passes, and slants. Then that would cause the DBs to come up.

by emongear on Sep 29, 2010 8:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, the O-Line is bad.....but

The offensive line isn’t the one almost getting picked off on a quick 5 yard out (like Carson last week with a guy CLEARLY right in front of Chad.) My point is – I have no doubt that Carson has all the physical tools to get the job done, but mentally the guy isn’t where he used to be. He is making some TERRIBLE decisions with the ball….THAT isn’t the O-Line fault.

by DiddyGotGrillz on Sep 29, 2010 8:46 AM EDT reply actions  

A better O-line would certainly help, but it's not the only fix needed.

Carson is getting ok protection, but he’s not able to take advantage of it.

2010 - The Year of the Tiger.

by UpStateMike on Sep 29, 2010 9:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Sign Briscoe

The guy knows how to run routes.

by jimbasa on Sep 29, 2010 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

omg

seriously? Briscoe is gone get over it

by Throw the ball on Sep 29, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

26 thanks

Just wondering how Briscoe possibly helps this team’s passing game improve??? You really think he is the missing piece and not the o-line?

by Throw the ball on Sep 29, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

-laughs-

Your reaction to the “omg” begs the question….How old are you? 72?

Shipley can run routes, and you’re not thinking straight if you felt Briscoe was going to take reps from Chad or TO.

Bratkowski is as vanilla as they come. Last week we were begging for a screen play and voila, a couple screens for good yardage. Open it up for gods sake…run a flea flicker, a little play action, a bootleg. Please, please, please just don’t keep doing the same crap that doesn’t work already under the delusion that “they just have to keep working to get it right.”

by JohnStofa on Sep 29, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

And the 2 fourth down conversions

That call to Brian Leonard in the punt formation was pretty ballsy. Brat improved his play calling last week, but the execution got worse.

This is our year!

by Paul Cannon on Sep 29, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt Brat made the call to go on 4th and 1 either time.

It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain

by jim0ijk on Sep 29, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

...

Right because TO and Chad are playing soooooooo good

by jimbasa on Sep 29, 2010 3:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Confidence

I think Carson, more than anything needs a game to give him confidence in the recievers and O line. At the end of the year last year, Carson was beat up and lost all faith in recievers other than Chad.
Go back and watch highlights from the preseason. Carson is sharp and and accurate. Once he started getting pressure by the Ravens, and Chad and TO dropped some balls he regressed to the form he had at the end of the season. he needs to regain that confidence he had in order to step into throws so that they are accurate and crisp.

by jim0ijk on Sep 29, 2010 1:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Confidence

I don’t think he has confidence in Bratkowski either.

by BonnieBengal on Sep 29, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

No agruement.

It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain

by jim0ijk on Sep 29, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

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