The Dalton Cool Aid
by AMAS85 on Nov 23, 2011 11:55 AM EST
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PrintBefore I go into this, don't get me wrong, I like Dalton. I think he has a great future ahead of him and I hope he can bring the championship to Cincy! Im only bringing this to light because he should be held to a high standard because he has the ability to be great.
BUT I feel like Dalton is not getting the fair share of criticism for his play in recent games. I think he has performed at ROY level, but not elite. He is definitely above an average QB, and the guy is a winner most importantly. To see where he fits permanently, only time will tell. Dalton has Kitna like qualities and very similar arm strength, but I truly think he will be a lot better then Kitna.
There have been inconsistencies on his part as well. Coming out of the draft, analyst question his arm strength and now I see why. Not to say he can't make it the NFL, he just cant make some of the NFL passes. I think Green with his unbelievable catches has masked these areas. For instance, why is the timing so off when it comes to throwing a deep ball to Simpson or Cadwell? His passes to them seemed to be off a little, either under thrown or just lobbed up for anyone to catch. I think I have only seen one deep pass caught on stride and that was to Cadwell at the end of the Baltimore game.
With all that said, I only have really two concerns with Dalton at this point.
Deep passes- Tend to be lobbed up or under thrown. I think once we develope a more consistant deep threat, excluding AJ, it will open the run and pass game more.
Intermediate throws (curls and comebacks) - Durning game winning/ tying drives, theses passes seemed to be tipped off where the CB knows where the ball is rather than the WR. I think they should work out a better routes to throw during game winning/ tying drive that aren't high risk for Dalton.
Like I said before, Dalton has a chance to be great! I think we should hold at that standard and not baby him. We can't use the "rookie" excuse forever!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors.
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I have to disagree with you
Yeah, he’s not an “elite” QB yet. But it would be pretty miraculous if he was. No QB comes into the league at an elite level. Cam Newton is going to shatter rookie QB passing records, and he’s nowhere near elite. So I don’t think it’s fair to hold Dalton to that standard. An 8-8 season from a rookie QB coming into the situation he came into would be an amazing feat, and he’s probably going to surpass it.
As for his throws, I have noticed exactly the opposite. My biggest criticism of Dalton through his first 4 games and the preseason was that he didn’t seem to have any touch on his deep ball – he would just “lob it up” as you put it and it was usually 5 yards long. In the past few games, he’s been dropping long balls into buckets. The INT to Caldwell Sunday was a poor decision, but it wasn’t a bad throw. He put it exactly where he meant to put it and hoped Caldwell would come down with it the way AJ usually does. Obviously, Caldwell is no AJ so it backfired. For me, it turned around when he threw the 50-yard TD to AJ against the Titans. Ever since then he has been nailing long throws pretty consistently. Watch Simpson’s first long catch last week. Peyton Manning couldn’t throw a more perfect 45-yard pass over a defender. And he came back and did it two more times in the 4th quarter, including another impeccable ball to Caldwell on his TD. The last few weeks have answered all my questions about Dalton’s ability to make all the throws.
And as for his shorter range throws (the ones more often being picked off), again I very seldom see him make BAD throws. They have occasionally been bad decisions (the 2nd INT Sunday that Smith grabbed), but almost never an overthrown or inaccurate pass. At times he’s maybe anticipating his receivers a little too much instead of reacting to the moment, but that kind of thing improves with time and repetition.
When i watch Dalton now, I see a rookie QB making rookie mistakes at times, the only difference is the rest of the time he’s looking like Drew Brees. The mistakes will decrease – they almost always do, especially with smart QB’s – and then I think the sky’s the limit. I don’t throw around Drew Brees’ name lightly. I think Dalton has that kind of ceiling now.
Don't get me wrong, Im knit picking on Dalton
you do that to players that have the ability to be great. My point on the deep throws, were they were on stride. The first deep pass was slightly under thrown and I believe the CB may have tipped it litte. And same thing with the pass that got called P. I. If both of those passes were on stride, they would have been touchdowns because Simpson had the CB beat.
I agree that TD pass to cadwell was beautiful, I just wish they all looked like that lol.
and my point with the intermediate throws, they are predicable when its in crunch time scenerios. Its like the DBs knew the play more than the WR, mainly because they can watch Dalton eyes the whole time and jump the route. Its either Dalton needs to look off the defender or the play calling needs to be more creative.
AMAS
The first pass to Simpson wasn't tipped
Floated right over the DB and landed right in Simpson’s hands. If he had just caught it like a normal person instead of juggling it for 5 yards and losing his stride, he would have been in the endzone.
I’ll give you that he still has to work on his eyes. He locks onto guys and defenders see it. THat’s another thing I think will get a lot better as he gets more experience.
it may have missed the DB slightly, but I believe Simpson had to slow down and go up for it
none the less, it was catchable. I just don’t think it was on stride.
AMAS
exactly
the only thing I’d add is that he too often seems content to throw it to the open guy at the line of scrimmage or 4 yards deep on a 3rd and 10. As I say that, though, I realize that the inverse is someone who takes unnecessary risks and turns it over on 3rd down rather than playing it smart, so it’s kindof a nitpicky point. There’s been chatter about Dalton being easily read on the snap count,and he does telegraph passes sometimes, but it’s pretty rare for a rookie to not do those things. I wouldn’t say the ceiling on him is in Drew Brees territory, that’s pretty damn high, but time will tell. I think he’s shown himself to be a very smart QB who is mentally very agile. He does a lot of the little things right that Palmer did wrong. Instead of staring at one receiver from teh snap of the ball until the ball is thrown to him in triple coverage, Dalton has the alertness and quick-thinking to read the field and find another target. That should be a given with an NFL starter QB, but we’ve been dearly missing it in Cincy for a long time. Palmer seemed absolutely oblivious to defenders coming up on his blindside, often fumbling as soon as he’s touched, while Dalton has the pocket presence to know when it’s collapsing and extend the play with his feet. He’s also shown to be very elusive, shaking off would-be sacks.
Nobody since Marino has been an elite NFL QB in their rookie season, but Dalton looks pretty darn good.
Also
I hope he has the same mentality as Drew Brees because Brees hates it when is just a little off. Brees is a true professional and will work on something until he gets it right!
AMAS
Bree's is borderline psychotic as a perfectionist (in a good way)
and from what we’ve heard of Dalton taking his film study home, and even studying film/teaching it to his wife….. to me that is remarkable for such a young guy. Might I add, thank God his wife is so cool w/that. Athletes dont have tons of time for family etc, so for him to be so immersed that he takes his work home and she’s cool with it….that’s something even a perfectionist like Brees doesn’t do (take his film home…to my knowledge).
The Curse of Bo Jackson: Jan 13th,1991- present day
Isn't it acceptable..
to use the “rookie excuse” while he is, you know a rookie?
I thought Steelers fans were bad. Geez oh man, you guys are tough on your QBs!
First season in the league
is an excuse?
by Oregonbengalsfan on Nov 23, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
no, saying thrown pics late in the game
because he is a “rookie” is an excuse. Playing his first season in the league is expierence.
AMAS
It seems you are expecting our rookie QB
to already play like a Vet, which to an extent he is. Hell we could have drafted Gabbert…
by Oregonbengalsfan on Nov 23, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
my expectations are set from previous games not years of expierence
If I see him making good throws in one game, I expect him to make the same throws the next game. The Intermediate throws should be his specialty. No doubt, playing the steelers and batimore is tough. But he basically made the same mistake twice at the end of the game. And I don’t necessarly blame the WR because Andy should either throw towards the back shoulder or feet instead of into where the CB is playing.
AMAS
I don't know if I'd call it the same mistake.
Unless you consider “throwing the ball to Andre Caldwell” a mistake, and there’s a case to be made for that. The first one looked like a miscommunication where Dalton thought Caldwell was going to be continuing his route when he actually sat on it. Ball went where Dalton thought Caldwell would be but he wasn’t there. The last INT both Dalton and Caldwell were on the same page, and the ball was pretty well thrown too, just a little off the mark and Webb made a terrific play to snag it. They’re both mistakes, but I don’t think they were the SAME mistake.
"Unless you consider "throwing the ball to Andre Caldwell" a mistake"
Thats hillarous! +1 for that lol… its not exactly the same mistake but the pass shouldn’t have been to the slot receiver because its high risk throw that could turn into a pick 6. But the routes were very similar.
AMAS
his last 2 games were also against 2 top 3 defenses for the first time in his career
…using the “rookie” argument isn’t an excuse in this case…it’s a reason
The Curse of Bo Jackson: Jan 13th,1991- present day
yes, in reality he is a rookie by definition
but my point is to hold him to a higher standard and not just say he is a “rookie”, he is going to make mistakes. He is not just an ordinary rookie and shouldn’t be babied. IMO
AMAS
I will say, however, that I think our receivers had to lay out too many times.
Whether that is inaccurate passes or inaccurate routes, that’s another question.
by Oregonbengalsfan on Nov 23, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
There is truth in what AMA said. Dalton has been a factor in Dalton getting to where he is.
I do think he overstated his case with his headline. Kood Aid is a derrogatory moniker. I think what he really meant is that Dalton does have some real issues to deal with. Looking off receivers is one. Improving his play action is another. I am not a big critic of the long passes he has thrown. He doesn’t have a cannon and they shouldn’t be asking hin to throw those long bombs except to stretch out the D on a regular basis. This is where Green helps the most. It is acceptable for a rookie to have these issues? Well it better be because Dalton appears to be the best QB rookie of the past 20 years per some and he has them. I don’t think it is what AMA said as much as it was the way he charactorized it.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
Oops, meant to say Green has been a factor for Dalton.
Then again, when I tink about it, Dalton himself has been a factor in his own siccess as well. They are both good and it is a symbiotic relationship. It is something we have not had here in a while so I think we can all be excused for not recognizing it.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
The whole "he doesn't have a cannon" line is starting to baffle me
I know that was the headline on his scouting report, and the reason he fell to us in the 2nd round, but the last couple weeks he’s been firing it downfield as well as any QB in the league. He puts a ton of zip on his short passes. I was watching the game this week at a bar and some guys were sitting next to me watching another game. After the 2nd or 3rd Dalton bomb, one of them said to his friend “I thought that guy was supposed to have a weak arm?”
I don’t want to imply that Dalton doesn’t have any flaws, but the more I see him play the less questions I have about his arm strength. Gruden was saying after the draft that he didn’t understand that criticism, either, because he’d seen Dalton make all the NFL throws.
To me
Dalton deep passes seem to fluter a little bit. I think most QB’s in the NFL can throw it 60yrds, its more about the arc and spiral. Its not the distance he throws, its the action of the ball im concerned about. I am tough on Andy because Im use to Palmer’s deep passes, which had a good arc and spiral where the ball tips down into the WR bread basket.
AMAS
The good news is Andy has shown flashes of brilliance on the deep balls
As a rookie thats normally what you see. Now he just needs to develop more consistency. I see no reason to think his deep balls won’t improve. If they improve marginally then we have a QB that is good enough to win a Super Bowl, IMO.
In fact, with the current talent he’s shown we’ve seen QB’s with less talent and ability win Super Bowls.
Eric, Dalton doesn't have a cannon arm. He just has everything else.
Carson did, and now that his arm appears healed, does have a cannon arm. Watch Carson if you get the chance. He doesn’t loft a 30 yard pass. He throws it on a very near flat trajectory. This means he can release the ball a bit later and the DB doesn’t have as much time to respond. It is an advantage. Nop doubt, but it is not a neccessity. In fact I can list a dozen things a QB needs that out weigh that big arm. Dalton has 9-10 of them and can learn the other two. H needs to work hard on the play action fake and he needs to develop the ability to go thru his progressions and not lock onto a WR. Dalton has plenty of strength in his arm to get the job done. Just don’t expect him to throw the ball on a string to the end zone from the 50.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
I agree
Dalton doesn’t have a Brett Favre cannon of an arm. But like you said, that’s overrated anyhow. If not then Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, and Jamarcus Russell would be elite QB’s while Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Tom Brady would be average QB’s.
That being said, Dalton has enough arm strength to make all the NFL throws without a problem. Basically Dalton has enough arm strength that it shouldn’t really be brought up as often as it is, especially by the National ‘Analysts’ that make comments like “Andy Dalton will struggle today because the wind will blow his passes everywhere”. He has enough that it’s really a non-issue and will probably get stronger as he improves like a lot of QBs in the NFL have.
He’s shown the ability to look off defenders so he just needs to become more consistent with that. Trusting the Receivers and more experience and he should be just fine ;)
He certainly doesn't have a Carson arm
I’m not saying that. But like C1ncy4Life said, his arm is plenty strong enough that it shouldn’t need to be discussed. And I’m still seeing him make some very pretty deep throws for 40+ yards which he didn’t seem capable of making in the first few weeks. That’s what has impressed me more than anything about Dalton. He started off strong and every single week he’s shown improvement in one area of his game or another. In the begininning of the season Gruden said that Dalton wasn’t using his feet to extend plays – fast forward 5 weeks and he looks like one of the most elusive pocket QB’s in the league, shedding sacks and keeping his eyes downfield. Then they questioned his arm strength, so he played a couple windy games and his accuracy was spot on. Then he started improving the accuracy on his long balls. I feel like we’ve seen 2-3 seasons of maturation in 11 weeks. I don’t know that I’ve seen anything quite like it. Guys like Cam Newton can come into the league with all the physical skills in the world and light it up, but you don’t necessarily see visible improvements in their game. With Dalton you can almost see him improve from series to series. At that pace, he could be elite within the next 2 years.
Carson's arm is back?
That son of a bitch has been lobbing everything for 5 years and suddenly in another uniform he can throw it on a flat trajectory again? If that’s true, my disappointment and mild dislike for him have become absolute hatred.
That last game he played
Palmer was on point, throwing lazers even on the move. So, yea i don’t get it either lol.
AMAS
He's on a couple games back after extended rest.
Let’s see him by about the midway point of next year.
"It’s time people started realizing just how good a player Carlos Dunlap already is, and that starts with the Bengals. They gave him a season-high 58 snaps and what was the result? Carnage on the right side of the Seattle line." -Pro Football Focus
by Doc Scratch on Nov 25, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
"Kood Aid is a derrogatory moniker"
Not sure what you mean by that, but my point with the headline was to show that some people maybe a little hesitant to criticize Andy because of his early and somewhat surprising success. I really wasn’t trying to offend anyone or anything. I have a really high regard for Andy, I really do.
AMAS
to accuse someone of "drinking the kool aid" is an aspersion
it’s an assertion that the person is a blind follower.
not sure if you know the phrase origination or not.
ohhhh i see what you mean.....
well i wasn’t trying to offend anyone. It was a point, that I do believe people are so excited about what Andy has done and they seem not to look at certain things and criticize him for it.
I was just trying to shine light on the situation and show that you can support him and criticize him at the same time. Its a good thing to have high standards for someone and hold them to it!
AMAS
It's not that he isn't being criticized
It’s that there is an understanding that he is a rookie. If he continues to play without improving or correcting previous mistakes, then yes the criticism is completely justifiable. The interception that looked the same the last 2 weeks (1st one to Simpson, 2nd to Caldwell) wasn’t a mistake on Dalton’s part. It was the router the receiver ran, and this is what Gruden said also. And it’s not the OC covering for his rookie QB because he laid the other 2 interceptions at Dalton’s feet. I haven’t seen repeated mistakes.
by Oregonbengalsfan on Nov 23, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
it's cool. I got what you meant
I was in that other thread when you used it and was taken aback until the rest of the context showed you likely didn’t mean it offensively.
To understand where the phrase comes from, Google “Jonestown” sometime.
That is what I was trying to say in my thread. You said it better.
I get you AMA. I was trying to have your back.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
Thanks! I appreciate it!
I can tell we are on the same page here, pun intended. Its not that I don’t trust, like or believe in Andy. Its actually that I have such high regard for Andy, I want him to succeed and be that top caliber QB he can be.
AMAS
This was posted by ticalcaldwell in last night's open thread
Good little piece about Dalton and others, including Dirty. This whole season is going to be a learning experience for Dalton. Yes he has to work on things, however, he IS still just a rookie.
I’ll say it. I’m drinking the Andy Dalton Kool-Aid, cause it’s real!
by Oregonbengalsfan on Nov 23, 2011 12:55 PM EST reply actions
lol im drinking it too, im not going to lie
but if the cup needs more or less sugar its okay to say it. But i will have to check out that piece when I get home.
AMAS
+1
Are we really questioning our rookie QB that has completed 60% of his passes, has around a QB rating of 80 and has led us to a 6-4 record?
I mean yea, he’s made mistakes but of course he’s going to get better. He’s only played 10 games in the NFL. The little things like looking off defenders he’s actually shown the ability to do that, but just needs to become more consistent at it.
We ALL should be drinking the Dalton kool-aid. The bottom line that determines if you are the team’s franchise QB: “Can you lead this team to a Super Bowl?” Obviously I think he can lead us to a Super Bowl in the near future.
My take
Dalton has a lot of room to improve. I’m constantly defending him on here because I think the QB gets too much blame when things go wrong. For example:
The deep balls- People are constantly saying that he’s underthrowing AJ on deep balls. With some of the comments made we don’t know how he’s been coached. I point this out because I think Gruden likes our chances if we have AJ in a jump ball situation. That makes me wonder if he’s been coached to not ‘overthrow’ AJ and if he’s going to be off, be off under throwing where AJ can always adjust to the throw and make the spectacular catches we see regularly.
Not looking off receivers-On a lot of the 3 step drops a good QB HAS to know where the ball is going BEFORE the snap. On 3 step drops there is only time to look at 1 or two options(probably 1 with our OL). After the snap he has to trust his receivers to be where they are supposed to be. If they are not it results in what appears to be a bad throw, yet watching from TV it’s not 100% clear whose fault it is. Personally, I’m going to side with Dalton over Caldwell.
Like I said, Dalton has a long way to go to get to where I think he will get. Let’s not forget though that Dalton is a rookie and has looked better then 95% of all Rookie QBs that have EVER came into this league. When you add the fact that he is one of the hardest workers we’ve ever seen along with his natural Leadership then the sky is the limit. Give him time.
One more thing. To those that made the comment that Dalton should have been pulled in the Ravens game. That is ridiculous. We’ve seen time and time again that Dalton is NOT affected by a bad play. He remains poised always. Regardless I would much prefer to take a loss in a game his rookie year if that means he develops into a Super Bowl winning QB. The focus now should be to win for the next 10 years. Pulling Dalton out of a game after the way he’s performed would be a HUGE mistake!
You made some very valid points
We don’t how they are practicing during week, but when it comes to the deep ball, Im sure its more or less throw it up to where only AJ can get it. That only works for AJ and the only other player that comes to mind is Calvin Johnson. But they definatly need to work on other passes with Simpson, Cadwell, and Gresham.
But I don’t know who would suggest taking Dalton out, I was very impressed how he put us back in postion to win/ tie the game. He stays calm and didn’t get caught up in the emotions of things.
And yes Dalton is a rookie, but he is special one. I just want people to keep their standards high for him, so he becomes one of the elite players.
Plus, that is one of the negatives of being the QB. They should take most of the blame because they have to manage the game and make the right passes. And they also get paid to take on all the responsibility.
AMAS
I agree he needs to improve
But honestly everything I’ve seen points to him improving. He is a hard worker and a natural leader.
Knowing where to go on the 3 step drops is a good thing. Now he needs to get to the point where he’s comfortable enough with his receivers to look off the defenders and KNOW that his receiver is going to be where they should be. I’ve seen him do that multiple times, he just has to get more consistent with it. Also, he may not be looking off defenders because he may not have that trust with some of his receivers. I think that will get better once AJ returns and next year once he plays with Shipley and builds chemistry with Shipley(and even Gresham to some extent).
Dalton will definately improve
And I think he will great chemistry with Shipley once he is back. I can’t wait to see how they work with each other throughout next year.
And its a double edge sword when you can get the ball out quick, because once you have commited there is no turning back.
AMAS
I think Shipley will be a huge presence for Andy
In the WCO you almost have to know where the ball is going on the 3 step drops. The thing is the QB HAS to trust his receivers and they have to be on the same page.
Honestly it MAY explain why Andy doesn’t always look off receivers. If he can’t trust the receiver to be there even subconsciously then he is more likely to follow them with his eyes.
Building trust with receivers like Shipley that Dalton can have 110% confidence in, that they will go into traffic and make the tough catch will only improve his performance.
Lastly, this is one reason why I would love to see Gruden motion Gresham into the slot. Gresham is so big and quick that he should be perfect for slants where he can use his body to “block-out” the defenders.
Very true
To be honest it would be perfect if Chase Coffman could learn how to block a little. Those 2 could be deadly in the WCO.
Unfortunately I just don’t see it with Coffman any longer :(
does any one know how Chase is progressing?
I would imagine he is getting better or we wouldn’t keep him. But yea did see some of his college highlight and he does have amazing hands.
AMAS
I've been saying it for a little while now...
I think we all need to get over Chase Coffman. It might just come down to the fact that the guy isn’t an NFL caliber player. Everyone seems to assume that he’d be a competent pass-catching TE, but maybe he just doesn’t show the ability to run good routes or grasp the playbook in practice. To me, the most telling thing is that no other team has even sniffed around taking him off our practice squad in 3 years. He dropped in the draft because scouts saw something they didn’t like about him, and now GM’s are staying away from him even while watching guys like Gronkowski going nuts.
Maybe it’s time to just move on from Chase Coffman. I actually liek what I’ve seen from Cochart, and when you’re basically talking about a guy who might get 1-2 targets a game playing behind Gresham, I think he’ll do just fine. I also hope Donald Lee gets healthy, because him and Gresham on the same field could be scary.
He has the ability to catch passes, IMO
He was too good at it in college.
I’m guessing it’s the blocking and possibly ‘getting’ the playbook as he doesn’t seem to be the most intelligent person.
The disturbing thing is like pointed out above. If it’s simply his blocking then we need to learn to use him at his strength as long as he is willing to work on the other area’s. Zimmer does it on the Defense. Rotating in players that are better pass rushers on passing downs, etc….
I do agree though, that it’s basically time to give up on Coffman. If he ends up panning out, then great. I just don’t expect it at this point, but you never know.
I think it does have a lot to do with blocking too
because i think chase was on the 53 man roster at the beginning of the year and then they decided to pick up a veteran. So unitl he comes and can block, teams will know its a passing play if he is in.
AMAS
Shipley = money
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
Agreed
If you look back on the day we drafted Shipley I was one of his biggest supporters coming out of College. I said multiple times he would be a great slot receiver and quickly become a fan favorite. I even predicted he have a big year and was criticized for it, though he ended up having a little better year then even I predicted.
I think this team is really missing what Shipley could bring to the offense. With AJ getting more and more respect and Dalton improving Shipley would frequently be looked at in the slot to make first down receptions and he would come through.
Let’s just hope and pray for a healthy return for Shipley next year.
I was not a member of CJ when the Shipley draft occured.
I was a regular on another site where I was such a proponent of Shipley that the entire group got irritated with me. I either wanted Shipley or Dexter McCluster but Shipley was my first choice. He and Leonard are by far my favorite Bengals. They are real football player – not just athletes who play football. We have not seen just how good I believe he will be. Getting him back next year will be like getting another 1st round pick – he is that good.
(someone else posted that last week I think so I won’t take credit for the illistration). Green, Gresham and Shipley. Nobody will have a better #1 WR, TE and Slot Receiver than the Bengals next year and only a selct few will have one nearly as good.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
Agree
I just really hope Shipley is able to come back 100%.
I don’t think we’ve seen Shipley’s ceiling and it’s a shame he was injured this year. I think at this point in the year Dalton could really use Shipley who I think would have built a lot of trust in each other.
Like you said, the good thing is that if he returns to form then it’s like getting another top prospect. I should also point out that since Shipley isn’t a “burner” that the injury shouldn’t affect him as long as he doesn’t try to come back to soon.
It'll affect him as much as Welker's injury affected him
which is more or less not at all.
I actually think you were a member JJ
I distinctly recall you wanting Shipley before the draft. You were awfully high on him and talked about how he was the next Wes Welker. That he would be the most sound pick in the draft for us or for anyone who picked him. You were right!!
I thought so too actually
I thought JungleJohn and myself were 2 of the only people not ‘yelling’ for the Bengals to draft Mardy Gilyard, and in fact we were telling people that Shipley was a better player and pick then Gilyard.
I believe that JJ and I have been 2 of the top Shipley supporters since day 1.
People said he should have been pulled?
That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Even if you don’t think he had a chance to make the comeback (which he obviously did) it’s a really valuable learning experience for him and a gauge for the coaches to see how he reacts to adversity. Anyone who thinks Bruce Gradkowski would have given us a better shot at winning, or that Dalton would have learned something by being “punished” is out of their minds.
Yes, in the "in game thread"
there was a poster(or two) that were calling for him to be pulled. Look it up. In fact, that was the point when I left the thread because the posts were more upsetting then the game. I left the thread and obviously continued to watch the game, even though I didn’t even think he could put us in a position to win at that point.
wasn't there for that game but I can't take the game threads
some people just screaming at every single play that doesn’t work perfectly. drove me to leave.
There are a lot of really stupid Bengals fans. Not us though - we are insightful and brilliant.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
i was one of those people
i was calling for it not as a punishment or because i thought bruce would do better. rather, it was just for one or two plays to let him cool down. yes, dalton has a lot of poise for a rookie, and even in comparison to many vets for that matter. however, he’s also very passionate and you can see his anger at himself when he makes mistakes. everybody needs time to collect themselves, and regardless of dalton’s poise i still think there was a specific moment where he seemed legitimately flustered for the first time this entire season.
i by no means said he should be pulled as in for the entire game or to “punish” him, but rather to just let him regroup and quickly come back out with a bit less adrenaline pumping.
Ok, question
So when Dalton is a Super Bowl winning QB and a consistent Pro Bowl QB and he has a bad game and shows his emotions WHILE THE DEFENSE is on the field, do you pull him for 1 or 2 plays?
That should answer your question whether he should be pulled this year. In fact, it’s more important not to pull him this year so he can get that experience.
Yeah I can't understand this logic...
First off, you go with the guy who gives you the best shot at winning. Period. And that’s obviously Dalton on this team, so the conversation should end right there. But even if there was a veteran guy who could maybe come in and do a little better, the chance to give Dalton the experience of making mistakes and coming back from them in a real, critical game is invaluable.
I'm always seeing Dalton compared to Breeze and for some unkown reason Kitna (which I do not see at all)
I may be way off base but the QB he reminds me the most of currently in the NFL is a less reckless Tony Romo with way better leadership qualites. Very good arm but not a cannon, despectively athletic and can make plays. They are about the same height weight and build. I do think Dalton is smarter, a better leader and will have a better carreer when it’s all said and done
I can see that
I said Kitna because of the arm strength and his leadership he brings to the table. Kitna was never a deep threat passer and was good a intermediate throws. But Romo maybe a little closer comparison as far as ability.
AMAS
By the way good post
Way to get a discussion going on slow day @ work when I’m stuck in the office and virtually everyone else in my industry is off:)
lol same here
Since its the holiday, its been super slow where I work too. So I had more than enough time to type something out.
AMAS
Me too. My boss is a real prick. Which is bad because I own the company and I am the bosss.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
by JUNGLEJOHN on Nov 23, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
One thing I notice is that he has just a touch of the gunslinger in him.
It can hurt him a bit while he is still learning, but I don’t want him to lose it. As long as he keeps it under control it can serve him well. When plays break down and he has to improvise he can do it abd still have the presence of mind to throw it away. He realizes throwing the ball out of bounds, even on 3rd douns, isn’t a bad play. Favre had a bit of a better arm than Dalton but as he continues to play I see jusy the right touch of Farve in his play. I really see Dalton as a probable top 5 QB very soon. Some say he isn’t any better than Flacco, but Flacco has been in the league for 4 years I think. I will take even with him after 2/3 of a season. And frankly I think he is a top 15 QB right now and I wouldn’t put Flacco in the top 10. They say he is better because he has playoff wins. We all know, outside of Baltimore, that they won carrying him not because of him. Flacco is better now but there are many who question if he is their guy for the future. I don’t question that in Dalton.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
I think Dalton has a good shot being a top 5 QB
once they figure out how use Gresham more. I still can’t figure that one out… Im watching the patriots use their TEs no problem and its not like they are running hard routes… there mostly outs, slants or up the seam.
AMAS
Muy first thought was Romo also
He seems like he just plays similar, but better mental capacity and less reckless like you said. But his tempo and vibe remind me of Romo.
Nice article and comments fellas.
There were many over in Viking Land who were clamoring for Dalton in the off season. Well we went with Ponder and, while I still feel hopeful that Ponder will become our QBOTF, I feel a little bit jealous right now, because Dalton strikes me as being the real deal. I’m not that familiar with your O-Line, but building that up in a big way seems, imo, as a way you eventually get that ring. A lot of factors to consider obviously but you’re dealing with a winner in Dalton.
"I saw a wino eating grapes and I was like, dude, you have to wait!" - Mitch Hedberg
thanks for the comment and outside perspective!
Yea i think everyone didn’t realize what a steal Andy would become, but yea he seems to have everything you need between the ears to become a great QB. But Ponder seemed to have energized the Vikings a little bit since he has become the starter. I havn’t seen much film on him but I know the bengals were looking at him too.
AMAS
A lot of people in Cincinnati wanted us to go after Ponder
I like him, but I think you guys paid a pretty steep price taking him so high. IMO he had a similar rating to Dalton coming out – not a can’t miss prospect, someone who if you took him in the 2nd round and he didn’t pan out it wouldn’t be the end of the world. Hopefully he does pan out for you. I do like his accuracy on the run.
dalton overthrows a lot of deep balls
And hes thrown the ball 50 yards on the money. He’s got the arm strength. He sets his feet he can throw the ball as far as he needs. He’s not a cutler or big Ben who can bomb it 50 yards off his back foot though.
by JCompton41 on Nov 23, 2011 7:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I don't blame Daltons three picks on him being a rookie
I blame it on Baltimores D, which was surprisingly good without Lewis. Same with Pitt. How many other QB’s have had three pick games vs. those Defenses over the past couple years? This was Daltons first chance ever play against championship level NFL defenses, Well maybe the Niners. Still as long he CONTINUES to improve It’s a little hard to get bent out of shape. Yes we lost the last two games by pts off turnovers. Thats how most closely matched NFL games are decided. You DO kind of expect a rookie to come out the short end of the turnover battle from time to time. especially against good defenses.
true, but I did say I was knit picking on Dalton
I really do believe he has it and hope he can change the attitude of the franchise. And in a few years, its going to baltimore and pittsburgh trying to keep up with us. I just wanted to point out few things Dalton has an opportunity to work on. And I think he is above the “rookie” mistake excuse.
AMAS
There are some that have truly criticized Dalton
And I think when people first read your post they thought you were one of those. It’s clear to me that your saying basically the same thing the majority of Bengals fans are. Essentially Dalton has exceeded all expectations and he has us all very excited about our Bengals for years to come. Here’s the but :) He does need to continue to work on a few key area’s though. With his work ethic there’s no reason to think he won’t.
Also, if we nail our extra draft picks we will be able to surround him with enough talent that he won’t have to everything for the team to win.
Nah, it wasn't the defense, it was Dalton
Two out of the three picks could have been avoided. If he didn’t bomb it up into double coverage with Caldwell trying to catch a jump ball, it wouldn’t have been a int. Doesn’t matter what defense. Also, if the defender has inside position on a slant, then you don’t throw it inside. I saw Caldwell stop, but I wonder if that’s just because the defender had inside position and his read was to stop and catch it on the back shoulder.
The third interception, however, was on Caldwell. He came out of his break at the wrong depth and Dalton threw it to where Caldwell should have been, not where Caldwell was. Defense made a great play, sure, but again, the interception didn’t happen because of the defense.
I would disagree
The first INT is Dalton’s fault, but I don’t blame Dalton at ALL for that throw. Look at the situation and you will realize Dalton done what he should have and game the team an opportunity. We were out of Field Goal range on 3rd down. Anything less then a first down would have been pointless. With the play that Gruden called Dalton’s best option in that situation was to give his receiver a chance to make a play. If you disagree then please provide an argument for what a better option was for Dalton to make.
On the second INT Caldwell clearly stopped his route. Of course the defender got inside position but that’s mainly because Caldwell stopped. If your going to be a receiver in this offense you HAVE to be able to fight for the ball on the quick 3 step drops. If Caldwell continues his route then it may not have resulted in a completion but it wouldn’t have resulted in an INT either.
Maybe, but Gruden said that Dalton should have never thrown into that coverage
When the DB has inside position on a slant, it’s almost always going to be incomplete or intercepted. Dalton should have seen that and not even thrown it. For all we know, Caldwell saw the coverage and stopped on purpose, expecting a back shoulder through instead. I don’t know the ins and outs of the play, just what I’ve seen and Gruden has said.
I will agree with you though, the first int wasn’t that big of a deal. He was trying to make a play at the end of the half.
My point was that it wasn’t amazing defense that generated the interceptions but Dalton’s decisions. Nothing wrong with him making mistakes as it’s expected, just saying it happened.
I've said plenty of times that it wasn't the best decision for Dalton to throw that ball
But I don’t think it was a horrible decision either. A lot of times on the quick drops he has to know where to go with the ball before the snap. In those situations he has to trust his receiver to either get to the inside or to atleast ensure the ball is not intercepted.
Regardless of what Gruden said I refuse to put all the blame on someone when I see a player stop playing in the middle of a play. Regardless of whether it was a good decision the result would likely be different if Caldwell didn’t stop.
Last, if you swap Caldwell for Jordan Shipley in that exact scenario I’ll bet that wouldn’t have been an INT. I don’t think I mentioned it in the post above, but have in plenty other posts: Dalton shouldn’t have made the throw but I am still unwilling to put all the blame on him on that throw when seeing his target basically quite on the route.
I find it funny that Caldwell was the intended receiver on every interception Dalton had this past week.
Live and learn, Gruden?
"It’s time people started realizing just how good a player Carlos Dunlap already is, and that starts with the Bengals. They gave him a season-high 58 snaps and what was the result? Carnage on the right side of the Seattle line." -Pro Football Focus
by Doc Scratch on Nov 25, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
I was just watching Dalton's long balls in the last game
And they were right on target. Most of them were about 40 yards long or so, but they were pretty much perfect. Caldwell’s was in stride. Simpson’s first was just over the defender’s fingertips (throwing it further wouldn’t have necessarily done anything given Simpson’s route path) and the 2nd Simpson pass was absolutely perfect. The only reason Simpson didn’t score a TD is because Williams took down Simpson before the ball got there.
Dalton’s long balls started getting more accurate starting with the Seattle game and the great pass to AJ Green. From there, we’ve seen him make several big plays, big plays we hadn’t really seen that much of in the first few games or when we did, they were more due to Green than Dalton. However, I think he’s learning and improving and while the interceptions in the last 2 games were frustrating, I think there has been some really positive improvements.
This week he gets his third straight top 5 defense (#1 pass defense) in the Browns and we’ll see if he learned anything from his last two games.
the TD to Green in the Steeler game was nails, too.
Fifty yards in the air. (36 official plus 7 as it was back of end zone and he was 7 or 8 yards behind the line of scrimmage when he threw it.)
Agree
I’ve stated this before but to those that have complained that some of the deep passes to AJ have been underthrown, I wonder if he wasn’t coached to do that. From listening to some of the coaches speak they are perfectly content to put AJ in a jump ball situation and I wonder if he hasn’t been coached to “if your going to miss with AJ underthrow it where AJ can adjust and make a play on the ball. If you overthrow AJ he has no chance.” Just something I’m wondering.
I see advantages for the opposite strategy on long bomb type passes.
AJ is taller than any DB and faster than most. I would miss long as his height gives him the advantage there and there is probably nobody back there to catch and intercept the over throw. A shorter and slower DB can compete for an underthrow.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
Well the thing is if you miss long it's an incompletion
If you miss short though I would still give the play a very high probability of resulting in a big play for us since AJ is best at going up and getting the ball.
Also you would need to factor in the fact that atleast a small percentage of those plays are going to result in Pass Interference on the DB, which we’ve arleady seen a few times.
I guess what I’m saying is, IF you do miss short then there is still a high % of a huge gain. If you miss long you don’t give your best player a chance to make a play. I’d bet that the coaches have enough confidence in AJ’s ability that they would coach him to “throw it up” and I’m sure there have been more then 1 play that were designed with that in mind.
Oh, and I should add
Normally I see advantages for overthrowing 99% of receivers. But since one of AJ’s best attributes is his height, long arms, leaping ability, and simply put the ability to out fight CB’s missing short would be the best plan with AJ.
True, but if you hit him in stride, it's a TD instead of a 45 yard gain.
There are valid reasons for both.
I get what he's saying
I too think he was told to throw short. In the beginning of the season, Dalton was throwing 5 yards too long and missing bad. I think they told him to throw short for the reasons C1ncy4life has said. But of course his accuracy is actually getting better on the long throws…
Right, and a 45 yard gain is better then an incomplete pass
I may be wrong, but just from the comments I’ve read the coaches saying it just seems they are content with putting AJ in a jump ball situation.
That being said, as they continue to work together and get more comfortable and confident in each other I trust Dalton will be able to lead AJ in the appropriate times.
How the bloody hell are the Browns the best pass defense in the league?
"It’s time people started realizing just how good a player Carlos Dunlap already is, and that starts with the Bengals. They gave him a season-high 58 snaps and what was the result? Carnage on the right side of the Seattle line." -Pro Football Focus
by Doc Scratch on Nov 25, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
I think this is a time the stats lie
They are 31st in th league in rush defense. If you can’t stop the run, there is no need to pass against you, becuase the run is lower risk, while passing is higher risk, higher reward. Why take the risk if you can run on a team.
It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain
also
a combination of bad opponents and being in games where they’re down early so the opponent is running out the clock.
by indesignkat on Nov 25, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
While all of the above is true
Joe Haden is a good CB. He’s still a bit young but Haden does have plenty of talent.
Agreed
He may be the best CB we play all year.
It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain
Your probably right BUT
Haden may be a tougher CB for the Bengals. What I mean is that Haden has played AJ for years already and has always had good success against AJ. Therefore Haden may be a tougher CB for the Bengals while J-JO is likely the better CB, atleast right now.
I think Haden's the corner that had the best chance to shut down AJ
JJo can’t cover AJ one on one. AJ’s way too tall for him. He’s goign to need safety help all day. Haden is still at a height disadvantage, but is a lot stronger than JJo.
Who are we kidding, AJ can't be covered:)
Even when the CB is in position then AJ just leaps a couple feet above the CB and comes down with the ball, LOL.
Unfair Criticisms of Dalton and praise of Green
I have seen a number of posters say that Dalton throws the ball up for Green to get, and while this is somewhat true, I think that is more based on Dalton’s trust in Green than anything else. To highlight this, I will fisrt state that the Bengals are 5th in the league in passes ove 40 yards, and 12th in pases over 20. I can think of only one instance where we had a pass longer than 40 yards which was a short throw where the reciever gained the yardage, when Simpson went for 84 yards. Otherwise, the ball was thrown deep. Dalton has comopleted 7 of these passes, only 4 of which went to Green, Simpson has 2, and Caldwell has 1. Further, Green only has 1/3 of passes thrown over 20 yards (12 of 35) Simpson has 8, Gresham 5, and Caldwell one. There are 9 I didn’t look for, and three of the passes were thrown by Gradkowski, and I can’t determine how many were over 40 yards.
So Dalton has thrown the deep ball to the open reciever, that just happens to be Green because he is our best receiver.
I said 4 weeks ago if we went 2-2 over the last 4 we would be in the thick of the play-off hunt, and we are. Dalton led us to that, he needs to continue his play, hopefully with reduced INTs, as AMA said, but if he does, he will lead us to the play-offs
It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain
I agree and I've even commented that
I wonder if the trust in AJ’s ability haven’t even resulted in Dalton being coached to “miss short” if your going to miss when throwing to AJ. The thought process is along the lines of, if you miss short there is still a very high % that it will result in a positive play for the Bengals. Either AJ makes an extraordinary catch or even a pass interference call. Missing long doesn’t allow your best playmaker a chance at making a play. Even if you miss short with AJ the likeliness that the CB “outfights” him for the ball and isnt’ flagged for pass interference is a low enough % that if Dalton were to miss the best result would be miss short.
In fact, I’m sure more then 1 play was designed with “throwing it up” for AJ in mind for these reasons.
I'm interested in seeing this next game....
Or hearing this next game I should say….Rookie QBS seem to find something that works and lean on that to heavily…these last couple weeks without Green, Andy has had to find and learn new ways and receivers, and he did for the most part….up until last week the only person he would look to throw the ball to deep was Green…..last week he hit Simpson twice and Caldwell once each time for over 40 yards…. and Hawkins is making plays…..Now throw Green back into the mix and Andy should be a kid in a candy store….My only gripe so far is I would like to see Gresham go deep more with his size and ball skills he should be a deep threat, instead of these little 5 yard outs. The 5 yard out is a dumb play anyway the guy is throwing it 25 yards to the side into traffic for a very low reward and a huge risk….2 of Andys interceptions last week were of this ilk, its just a dumb play. Hopefully Andy will learn that…Carson never did.
good article
and i c wat your sayin since he isnt playing like a rookie lets hold him accountable too .. i mean i read most gameday threads an every time he makes a mistake guys tend to blame edverybody but him i dont get it i kno he is awesome but damn 3 ints last game and none of them was his fault come on man
Don't think anyone said that
I believe we said 2 were his fault while the third was Caldwell’s as he came out of his break at the wrong depth.
And honestly, one of the ints didn’t really hurt us. We were out of field goal range and the half was just about over. If no one is open 15 yards down field, might as well take a shot at the end zone.
Yeah but he should have never thrown that one.
He should have at least ran for the first down or something. Remember Gruden saying he wanted Dalton to use his feet more? All we needed was a first down to keep things alive. Every second, on every play on every possession is valuable in the NFL.
Andy Dalton > Phillip Rivers
Rivers has, for quite a while, been considered pretty much an elite NFL QB. Watching him yesterday was an eye opener. Every single thing we like about Dalton, he doesn’t do. Horrible feel for the pocket, bolting out of it for no good reason with no sense of where and when the rush is coming. Poor decision making. Relies on his arm strength to try and make bad throws into places he shouldn’t be going. It was like watching Bizzaro Andy Dalton. Rivers’ O-line isn’t great…it might even be pretty bad. But you can’t say he doesn’t have weapons. For Dalton to be out-playing a Pro Bowl QB like Rivers so soon in his career says a lot.
When I look around the league, if you ask me which QB’s I’d rather have than Dalton…I have a hard time coming up with more than a few names. Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, maybe (I hate to even think this) Ben Roethisberger. Other than that, everyone is too old, on the decline, or not nearly as good at a young age as Dalton. I’d take him over Eli Manning, Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Michael Vick, Mark Sanchez, Joe Flacco…I’d almost be surprised if people weren’t talking about Andy Dalton in the elite QB conversation by the end of next season.
Better than Rivers? Yes.
Some of the rest of it might have been a LITTLE homer of me.
But did you watch the Chargers game yesterday? I think this is a perfect example of why the “arm strength” knock on Dalton is BS. Rivers has been getting by on pure arm strength his entire career. Because of his supporting cast, he was considered borderline elite. He made lots of big throws, had a deep ball that looked like Carson in his prime, had that gunslinger mentality and aggressiveness that people liked. But he was never all that smart. And now that his supporting cast is starting to break down, you can see how that effects his game. He still has the arm strength, but he runs away from imaginary pressure in the pocket, makes stupid throws, etc. It’s the kind of stuff you’d EXPECT to see Dalton doing, except somehow Dalton seems to be years ahead of himself in that department. And it’s easy enough to see how that difference at the QB position translates into W’s and L’s.
In River's defense
This is his first “bad” year and he doesn’t have LT in his prime or Sproles anymore.
AMAS
That's my point though
I think he’s always been a really talented QB who got away with the mistakes he made because of his supporting cast. Everything you hear Dalton praised for, Rivers was doing the exact opposite. Repeatedly. And I’m talking about mental errors, so there’s no excuse for a veteran like Rivers to be making them.
True, I haven't seen that much film on Rivers
But it almost sounds like he is in a position he is not use to and starting to cave under all the pressure. I bet their are 64 QBs out there that wouldn’t mind having number 18 on thier team as well!
AMAS
Something just doesn't look right with Rivers this year
I’m not sure if it’s a tough adjustment without LT or Sproles or what but he doesn’t seem like he’s comfortable and in charge in the pocket this year. It’s just weird to be honest.
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