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Umm, I'm not sure....was that a catch or not?? It looked like a TD to me!


Can someone please explain to me the difference between the official rulings:

Jimmy Graham (11/28/2011 - New Orleans Saints vs. NY Giants) and

Jermaine Gresham's (11/20/2011 - Cincinnati Bengals vs. Baltimore Ravens)

Both players gain possession of the ball before crossing into the end zone.
Both players "go to the ground"
Both players lose possession of the ball while "going to the ground"
The NFL reviews all scoring plays
Jimmy Graham's is ruled a touchdown
Jermaine Gresham's is ruled incomplete.

If the NFL would just acknowledge that they screwed up or have favorite teams, that would be better than trying to explain how stupid their rules are.
Signed...
A confused fan

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors.

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Can't help you.

Im starting to think that all rules are valid, unless they go against the home team.

by redrifle14 on Dec 1, 2011 6:31 AM EST reply actions  

The ruling was that Gresham didn't have control before he went to the end zone, that he did not make a football move to establish possession.

That is incredibly incorrect, and in no way should have been overturned.

But that is what he called.

Change gone come mane! Trust me! Cause i Bleed tigerblood!--Jerome Simpson

by Grizzlyfox on Dec 1, 2011 7:07 AM EST reply actions  

Okay, lets put this discussion in order.

Gresham did not have possession in the field of play. He was bobbling it as he crossed the goal line. If Gresham had caught the ball cleanly it would have been a TD. It was not a TD. I wish it was – but it wasn’t. Stupid rule but it is still a rule.

"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"

by JUNGLEJOHN on Dec 3, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions  

The difference

Is that they rulled Graham had possesion before entering the endzone while Gresham did not. The rules are diferent in these cases.

Graham has a touchdown as soon as he crosses the plane, what happens to the ball after that is irrelevant whether he he drops the ball, spikes the ball, or carries it off the field.

Gresham did not have possesion before crossing the plane, so he has to follow the rules for making a reception, which includes maintaining possession through hitting the ground, which unfortunately he did not. In both cases the ruling was made correctly, whether we like it or not.

It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain

by jim0ijk on Dec 1, 2011 8:06 AM EST reply actions  

well put

But I do wonder if it holds up historically. On other occasions when a receiver catches the ball just outside the end zone and doesn’t get his second foot down until he’s across the plane, is it consistently called that way? If so, then we can’t really argue that it was called incorrectly. We can join in with everyone else ever in bitching about the stupid Calvin Johnson rule, though.

Regarding that rule, how many steps does a guy have to take after he shows control of the ball? If this wasn’t in the end zone, is it an incompletion? I saw Gresh get the ball securely between his hands and take two steps before he went down. At that point I’d think it has to be a catch, or maybe a catch then fumble, but supposedly the ground can’t cause fumbles… so why do the rules change in the end zone?

I think the NFL really should just admit their mistake and strike the Calvin Johnson rule. If it would have been a catch on the 50, it should count as a catch in the end zone. Otherwise it’s just silly.

by indesignkat on Dec 1, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought he had possession

made a football move broke the plane

by messjunk on Dec 1, 2011 8:21 AM EST reply actions  

his second foot came down

in the end zone, after he crossed the plane, so apparently crossing the plan doesn’t count. Even though it was ruled a TD on the field. And the guy reviewing it was concussed. And screw Baltimore, that’s why.

by indesignkat on Dec 1, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

The idea that the league "has favorite teams" is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard

People say this stuff all the time about how “Tom Brady would get that call” and blah blah blah. First of all, the refs on the field are making a decision in a fraction of a second based on what they see. It’s basically reflex. I refuse to believe that some 45 year old ref is sprinting down a football field alongside a 24 year old NFL receiver, watching out for camera wires and assistant coaches and down markers and god knows what else, all while keeping their eyes glued to a couple of guys moving at 1000 miles an hour looking for any one of a dozen or so specific rule infractions and then at the end, before he decides whether to call something a penalty or a TD, thinks to himself “Ok…what did that secret league memo say about this team? Are they one of our favorites or not this week?” And I find it even harder to believe that they then, on review, would go get on their headset and say “Hey guys, Tom Brady’s wife is pretty hot right? We should probably just give this to him. It’s not like we’re on national TV and every single thing we do and say is going to be picked apart and analyzed to the billionth degree. We should totally give out biased calls.”

I think, by the letter of the rule, that Gresham didn’t complete the pass and it wasn’t a TD. I also think it’s a retarded rule and it needs to be changed. But that rule was in the book at kickoff that day so that’s the rule you have to play by until it’s gone. That being said, EVERY team thinks there’s some kind of conspiracy against them in play calls. Talk to a Patriots fan and they’ll say the Pats don’t get calls because the league doesn’t want them to be too dominant. Talk to a Raiders fan and it’s because the league hated Al Davis. Talk to a Steelers fan and it’s because their defense is so good they need to be kept in check. It’s always something. And that’s because NO ONE ever remembers the bad calls that go YOUR way. You brush them off. If they ever come up again, you either justify how they were actually a good call or you say “oh well, that’s the game…sometimes you get away with it.” And then it’s forgotten. You NEVER forget the really bad calls. The Justin Smith roughing the passer in 2006. Now the Gresham non-TD. If we miss the playoffs this year people will be talking about this play for a decade. So what you’re left with is a giant repository of shitty calls in your brain and no real concrete memory of a probably very equal number of calls that were just as bad for the opposing team. And suddenly there’s a conspiracy because “Have you ever noticed how we get WAY more bad calls against us than ANY other team in the league? It must be because of (insert stupid reason here)!”

Let. It. Go.

by eric nyc on Dec 1, 2011 9:01 AM EST reply actions  

Although...

I won’t deny that the league has a bias OFF the field. Case in point, Mike Brown was apparently interested in Michael Vick when he got out of prison and Goodell basically went to Vick and told him he couldn’t sign with the Bengals and instead had to go to a “more stable” franchise like the Eagles…who happen to be a big market team in the league’s most profitable division. Not that I wish we had signed Michael Vick, or even that I think Goodell was necessarily WRONG in his judgement, but I’m amazed that the league didn’t catch more flack for that. When that story broke it looked like it could maybe cost Goodell his job. It probably should have. The league has no business interfering with player signings like that. THAT’S how you create a biased league, and it could happen really easily.

by eric nyc on Dec 1, 2011 9:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

Change gone come mane! Trust me! Cause i Bleed tigerblood!--Jerome Simpson

by Grizzlyfox on Dec 1, 2011 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Ancient history. It is like complaining about Pearl Harbor. Can't change it. Gotta accept it.

This kind of stuff just eats you up and is non productive. Shakespeare wrote “It does not toil not does it spin”. Time to move on.

"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"

by JUNGLEJOHN on Dec 1, 2011 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Favorite teams? of course not.

But every single human alive has biases. The refs are supposed to move BEYOND those. They need to acknowledge that they have them and account for them. Probably the vast majority of them (likely 95+%) probably do so at least 95% of the time.

That remaining ~5% of each, however, DO exist and ARE at least a potential problem.

It would not surprise me if the ref in this last game who overturned the call was biased. He could have been biased against us. He could also have been biased against Baltimore and in attempting to correct for his built-in bias went too far in trying to make sure he accounted for his bias. Both are equally possible.

The result is just simply bad luck for us. Next time Jermain needs to catch the ball on the five YARD line rather than the five millimeter line (assuming that he did, of course, but I still think that he did) and make sure it’s absolutely 100% clear he had possession and converted to a runner before he breaks the plane of the endzone.

by FriarBob on Dec 1, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought the call would be overturned before the announcers said they thought it would be

The ball left his hand for a split second. He needed to pull the ball to his chest instead of bracing his fall, then its a TD. It sucks, but I can’t see how the ref could call anything else except not enough evidence to overturn.

It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain

by jim0ijk on Dec 2, 2011 7:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Well if he didn’t have possession of the ball until AFTER he broke the plane of the goal line (and I suppose that MIGHT be true, even if I still don’t think it is) then you’re absolutely correct, it should have been overturned. Even if the rule is stupid, it’s also the rule.

But if he’d had possession on the 1-or-2-yard line (where he initially bobbled it) and then turned and ran it in it would have clearly been a TD and the “drop” after falling to the ground wouldn’t have mattered. That was my point. He should have caught it and ran it in where it was absolutely clear he was already a runner.

by FriarBob on Dec 2, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree he should have caught it.

The second foot came down inside the endzone, so he has to have posseision through hitting the ground.

I am also as frustrated as anyone, because it clearly cost us the game.

It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain

by jim0ijk on Dec 2, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

I say it was a TD. Here's why...

Simple, really. For Marvin’s entire time here; he ALWAYS sides with ref’s and puts it back on us (players) to do better, know the rule, be the bigger man, etc. Well, in his news conference he admitted that he thought it was a td and wasn’t sure why it was overruled. I think the whole “ball crossing plane” is crap anyway. I think the player should have to carry it across — would make it a lot easier for everyone.

by roy1elvis on Dec 1, 2011 10:50 AM EST reply actions  

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