2011 Draft Class: A bit of a disappointment
by eric nyc on Dec 1, 2011 6:02 PM EST
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PrintSlow down...hear me out. Andy Dalton and A.J. Green are phenomenal a-no-duh. They are going to be the cornerstone of what should become a championship caliber team. In a thousand years I did not expect those two guys to be THIS good THIS soon, and they are both at very key positions that an entire offense can be built around for the next decade. Could not be happier about all of that.
But what about the rest of this year's class? Aside from the handful of starts Clint Boling got for a suspended Bobbie Williams, not a single other draftee (including Boling) has even dressed for a single game so far this season. And it's not like this is a team filled with wily veterans who have remained remarkably healthy all season. We have a ton of guys on IR and the average age of our roster is somewhere just north of 14. Dontay Moch and Robert Sands can't even help out on special teams with their speed? Ryan Whalen can't learn the playbook? Boling was good enough to start on opening day but now he's not even good enough to be a backup?
We're obviously all wrapped up in our excitement over Dalton and Green, and rightly so, but good teams stockpile NFL-caliber talent through the draft. We've actually been pretty good at doing that lately, picking up contributors in just about every round of previous drafts (Atkins, MJ, Scott, Sims, Shipley). This year we hit a homerun with our first two picks, but you have to wonder how well we utilized the rest of our draft and if that is further proof that our scouting department is in dire need of some help. After all, AJ was a no brainer in the first round and Jay Gruden basically single-handedly scouted Dalton. Whoever was making the rest of the picks was clearly a bit off the mark.
Discuss.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors.
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What IR list are you viewing?
As of late — we have a total of 4 guys on IR. Throw in Rivers, it’s 5. As for the list — Muckleroy and Scaife were on before the season commenced. Lee replaced Scaife. Shipley was the first “hit” to the team. I think Hawkins can become his replacement — even Tomlin commented the like on his Tuesday press conference. Hall is the fourth and YES, that is a big time name. Rivers? Never put a helmet on and Howard has stepped up more than enough to fill River’s shoes. So, I ask — where is this “ton” of guys on IR? And, as far as the guys like Moch and Sands helping out…if you read the post around Bengals Nation — Simmons RAVES about guys like Peerman and Miles. Our ST’s are playing GREAT (albeit Tate — who should be replaced or rotated with Scott, Peerman, Hawkins). Lastly, Moch missed two months. I’d love to see him suit up — but who do you sit? Skuta? No. BJ? NO! Lawson, Howard, Rey the Samoan? No, No, No. The ONLY LB I’d swap with Moch is Rey (he’s the lb that let Clark thru the goal line and catch that doozy in the Indy game that almost did us in). In conclusion, not sure where your disappointment in the draft class is stemming from. Besides NEEDING AJ and Andy to play immediately; it’s nice to have a draft class that can learn, grow, develop. I DON’T want to be the team that needs three, four, five rookies to play immediately. I’d like to see them come into their own (kinda like the jacka** that’s now in Oakland did his rookie year).
I think you need to give this class a few years. I know that’s true for every class to some degree, but this group missed out on a real off-season. They missed a lot of workouts and a lot of time studying the playbook. Once the season started their wasn’t time to teach them and install game plans.
If none of these guys dress next year there’s a problem, but they at least need to go through one real off-season before we judge them.
Very good point.
Hadn’t taken this into consideration, but you’re absolutely right. Still, I would think Moch and Sands especially would have been shoe-ins for ST before the season. In fact, I assumed that’s why we drafted them. Because both were projects as NFL defenders, but they had the raw skills to be immediate contributors on ST.
Our ST players are excellent already.
Usually the rookies get ST play time, it’s true, but our STs have been pretty good without having to go to these guys. If we have enough players who can contribute on STs and on O or D, then the rookies you usually have to rely on to fill out your ST squad don’t get activated.
You want your first round to have an immediate impact, and you hope your second round pick will, too – when you get these two working, it’s a good draft.
Ideally, your third rounder should be contributing in some way, too, but Moch has been injured in an already-short offseason. Fourth round and down, you’re looking mainly for depth. If you get a good player, that’s a massive bonus (think Atkins, or any other example you can think of).
I think most people would prefer two stars-in-the-making to five good-for-depth guys, unless your team is REALLY thin, and it’s way to early to count our other draft picks out yet.
As JamesPhillips mentioned, if we get nothing from the rest of our picks next year, it would be disappointing. But even so, I couldn’t really call a draft class bad when it means getting Dalton and Green in the same year.
Well, if you were to tell me that we were only going to have two draft picks
but those two would be a “franchise” QB and an “elite” receiver I would have been happy.
So, overall I grade this draft as a success. I do agree with your assesment that the Bengals need more scouts. Scouting should be a year long process. To stay competitive the team has to rely on more than just coaches scouting after tha season.
Moch has been injured and Boling needs some seasoning. In the preseason Whalen looked like he could contribute. He would probably be active if Tate wasn’t a waste as a receiver.
"At the very end, somebody took a dump right where I stood in the dugout every day." Dusty Baker
Remember too
that Jennings and Mays were 1st round picks.
"At the very end, somebody took a dump right where I stood in the dugout every day." Dusty Baker
right
"At the very end, somebody took a dump right where I stood in the dugout every day." Dusty Baker
GIVE ME TWO STUDS
if you get two studs every draft class you are set its the drafts where you get no one that mess u over. Boling will be fine he was playing the right side when he is clearly a left guard. (yes there is a difference) Also Moch was hurt and hasn’t really been able to make a contribution because Thomas Howard has been a stud. We knew that Sands was a project when he drafted him so don’t get the complaint there. Whalen was a 6th round pick how many of those work out? Answer not many and if someone says Tom Brady was a 6th round pick then your an idiot. One in a million doesn’t make a trend.
Did that steelers fan
really just put antonio brown in Tom Brady status. Wow,they’re more delusional then i thought.
In his defense...
I don’t think he was putting Antonio Brown in Tom Brady status, just pointing out that he was a 6th round pick that has certainly “worked out”.
Agreed. Brown was a great pick for the Steelers.
by Mexal on Dec 2, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this
it can be done. To stay on top consistently, you have to find diamonds in later rounds.
3 starters on our D and where we drafted them.
Aaron Smith RD 4
Brett Keisel RD 7
James Harrison undrafted
The Steelers are replacing these players with high draft picks. I hope these higher picks can live up to the Standard that these “old” guys have set!
by steeler fever on Dec 3, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
How many of them
were playing in the first year? I honestly have no idea the answer to that question, but that’s the problem I’m having with the post is that it is way too premature.
Try not to take the above message too seriously.
limas sweed
talented 2nd rd. head case. Who we kept for 3 years because despite his ineptitude. Much easier to cut a 6th rd pick who isn’t transitioning well than a 2nd rounder. Sweed was a reach for us, that didn’t pay off.
Players drafted between 5-7, often take longer to develop. Thats where their attitude comes in. Do they have the patience and desire necessary to embrace coaching and show continued improvement. Talent wise it often seems that there isn’t much difference between a 4th and 7th rd pick.
I have learned to show patience toward our late round picks and judge the draft after about 3 years. The high round picks need to show me something quick or I am disappointed. Fair? I don’t know….just the way it is.
by steeler fever on Dec 3, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
But the way announcers talk about the Steelers
It seems like even early picks don’t see the field in their rookie year. I remember someone saying how shocking it was that Pouncey was on the field and performing well, and that usually the Steelers give even first rounders a year to get acclimated to the system.
Try not to take the above message too seriously.
nobody replaces a polomalu or ed reed.
by JCompton41 on Dec 3, 2011 5:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
follow the development of Ziggy Hood and Cameron Heyward.
Ziggy is starting in this his third year. And showed he could be a capable starter in his second year. Cameron Is a rookie with limited playing time, but is showing well when given the chance.
Pouncey, is one of the very rare rookies that started his rookie year. Of course thats on Offense.
On D is where its more likely for the new player to take longer to see the playing field. Especially as a starter! Hell Troy P didn’t start his rookie season.
by steeler fever on Dec 4, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
This is a positive
I know this is rare territory for the Bengals, but it appears as if they actually have depth for the first time in Mike Brown’s reign of terror. They don’t neccessarily need a ton from the mid to late round picks. Maybe guys like Sands, Boling, and Whalen turn out to be lousy, but for once it’s not going to sink the ship. Not a major conern.
by bodacio zk on Dec 1, 2011 7:55 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I agree about not really neding the later round picks.
If we only drafted 6 players and traded away all of the other picks to to a higher draft slot it is okay with me. It save the money and coache’s time dealing with those guys and that money and time can be used to keep keepers and here and give the coaches more time one on one developing them. Pick the right 6 and we are set . We do not need to filla lot of roster spots we need to add to a few key areas with quality. Yea, Tom Brady was a 7th round pick but how often does that happen?
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
I think this year draft is better than what you think
Yea we struck gold in the first and second round, but with the early success of Dalton. We were able to trade Carson for two possible first round picks. So the Dalton pick is indirectly responsible for getting us two more picks for the next two years. So I would call it a major success, especially if we make the playoffs and win a few games!
AMAS
I still like the Moch pick.
He has the physical tools to be a special player in this league, and he really hasn’t gotten a chance to make the active roster. Boling was a disappointment to me, but he might just need time. And once you get into the 5th, 6th and 7th rounds, it’s really a bit of a crapshoot. The fact that they think enough of Sands and Whalen to keep them on the roster is a positive if you ask me.
I think you should wait before saying Boling was a disapointment
He was thrown in the Starting Lineup at the last minute and without any real snaps with the 1st team Offensive Line in Training Camp or Preseason. Add to that we didn’t have an offseason. Last factor in that he’s probably better suited to be a LG and I think it’s entirely too early to say he’s a disappointment.
I also think that if not for Paul Alexander’s love affair with Nate Livings I think Boling could do as good, or better, job then Nate. Nate has atleast a penalty a game(usually 2+) while giving up a few QB pressures(or sacks) and missing blocks in the run game consistently.
Just think Boling was put in a tough situation to succeed from the very beginning. Let’s give him some time before we decide he’s been a disappointment.
I'm throwing my lot in with the people who have said it's a positive.
We need the best players on the field. The fact that the best players we have aren’t 3-7th round rookies with no off season is good, right?
Am I missing something?
I appreciste that fever. I know it had to hurt just a little. LOL
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
think it's fair to expect 1rst, 2nd, and maybe 3rd round picks to make an impact right away
Anything else I think you have to give them time to develop and if they can make an impact right away that’s all the better
Moch is the disappointment.
Can’t expect that much from Sands.
by occams_tiger_teeth on Dec 1, 2011 11:09 PM EST reply actions
Biggest disappointment is not Moch - it's his injury.
At least in my opinion. It’s sad that he hasn’t been on the field and we haven’t seen what he’s capable of (I actually know next to nothing about him), but I would hesitate to say HE is the disappointment.
completely unbiased viewpoint
I thought moch was a work out wonder. But his tape on the field didn’t translate to him being able to do much with it. I was glad the steelers didn’t pick him up. Pre draft some were projecting him to us. I thought yall blew the last draft after your first two picks. It had me SMH.
by steeler fever on Dec 3, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Even though I'm the one who made this post...
Any draft where you get two Pro Bowl talents (as rookies even) is far from a blown draft. I’d say any draft where you get one Pro Bowler and one consistent starter is a solidly very good draft, but to get two at skill positions is a rare feat.
i think sands may still be good
Same as boling. Boling can be ok and solid depth maybe spot starter. Sands can be very good, but not for a few years. Whalen is great depth, and cochart and hawkins were great udfas. We may have only got 2 starters, but depth elsewhere is still good. Even though we passed on starters like cannon, for depth like boling.
by JCompton41 on Dec 3, 2011 3:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
We drafted the heart of the offence for the next ten years
Disappointment? No way.
I dont see anything at 5 and under disapointment
They’re usually raw players, or won’t make the roster. Moch I dont like the pick, to raw to play and have other needs. But I can see the potential and also see why he’s not playing now. Boling, disapointment. Maybe he he here better, maybe not, but as of now he’s not what I expected and can’t be counted on. Whalen is buried, green, Simpson, caldwell, hawk. Don’t think he will ever play for us but as a 6th round pick, he’s solid depth, and atleast makes you feel better if we lose someone.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 12:53 AM EST via mobile reply actions
and sands is a project
Knew that when he was drafted in the 5th round. And the special teams has been good, why take people out when they’re doing their job? I do think we can cut rey and use Moch in that and have an extra roster space for something else, but that’s the only arguement i can make for changing anything.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 12:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Cut Rey?
I’ve heard this tossed around in a few threads. I really don’t get it. Rey has looked REALLy good this year when he’s been healthy. Considering it’s his first time playing MLB in the league, and in 3 years, and that he’s now for the first time taking on the responsibilities of QB’ing the whole defense, he’s going to have a few growing pains. There have been very few gaffes in lining up the defense. You’d expect to have seen a few more of those. Most of the issues have been in the secondary, and I think that’s a communication problem between those guys. As fro his play, just watch the Browns game. He was flying all over the place. He’s as fast as any MLB in the league and probably faster. He’s a solid tackler. And he’s going to get better the more he settles into his natural position. On top of all fo that, Marvin has been looking for his MLB since the day he got here. He’s been through about 800 of them because most have either been really bad, really dumb, or kicked out of the league. He stuck with Dhani as long as he did not because he was great, but because he was solid and he wanted the consistency. As long as Rey is smart enough to handle the mental side, his play is more than good enough to keep Marvin in his corner. And I think his play could climb to a really high level next year.
Besides, if you were going to replace Rey with someone on the roster now, you’d think it would be Muckelroy. Moch is an OLB who specializes in pass rushing.
nonononononono
Cut Rey… as in VINCENT REY! Not Rey Maualuga haha. No one is saying to cut Rey Maualuga… YOU CRAZY GUY!
Ha. Yeah that makes more sense.
But I have heard people talking nonsense about drafting a replacement for Rey next year.
Maualuga?
He’s looked a little better, and I still hope he develops into a “REALLy good” MLB, but he’s mediocre at best right now. He doesn’t hit, wrap, and drive, he just dives and hopes for the best. Once a game or so he bursts through the line on a run blitz and dives at the RB and the guy doesn’t avoid him, then we all (me included) scream and cheer for Rey, but most of the time he’s out of position and/or diving and whiffing. Most of the tackles he’s credited with are situations where he dives at someone, nudges them a bit, and someone else (often Atkins or Howard it seems) wraps the guy up.
I really want Rey to be great, but we really do seem to have blinders on just how mediocre he’s been.
I disagree
If we had put him in at MLB from day one, I think he’d be a Pro Bowler by now. We stunted his growth having him play out of his natural position for so long. It was partly his own fault, because he’s apparently not the brightest guy in the world so he wasn’t ready to take over the D in place of Dhani until now. but still. I think this year is a growing year for him, and he’s showing a lot fo growth. I’d put money on him absolutely exploding next year.
Sick of what excuse?
The excuse that he was playing in a position he wasn’t suited for? This is the first year he’s at MLB. And he’s playing PRETTY well. Not Pro Bowl level, but certainly showing a lot of improvement.
But I’m sure Marvin will be interested to know that you’re “done” with Rey Maualuga.
He's not done with Rey
He’s just done with this reasoning of why Rey will be a good player. Obviously since it holds no weight with him anymore, it is no longer a reasonable argument for anyone, Rey himself included, and you should just default to the fact that he’s been mediocre and therefore (I’m guessing by his reasoning) he always will be.
Try not to take the above message too seriously.
I've said all along
That I really like Rey. As I’ve said many times, when he was drafted I cheered so loud I scared my wife. I’m just sick of all the whining about how he’d be the best LB in the world if he hadn’t been put on the outside. It’s a dead horse. The guy simply is not technically sound. The argument has now gone completely around the bend. It used to be “He’s a MLB, he only looks mediocre because he’s playing out of his natural position” and now it’s “He was in the wrong spot last year, you have to allow time for him to adjust”.. to being in his natural position? He needs to erase the year spent on the outside before he can relearn how to farking tackle?!?!? I really want Rey to be great, and I still hope he will be, but you can’t be a great LB if your tackling method is to dive and hope for the best. That’s what he does 90% of the time. He’s going for the big hit instead of wrapping the guy up.
hes still playing like a sam backer at mlb
Next year will be the year to really judge everyone at new spots, including the rookies.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 10:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Vincent Rey's like Rico Murray
I completely forget they’re even on the team until I happen to see one of them standing on the sidelines and have to look up their number.
Actually...
Rico isn’t on the team and is a free agent (last time I checked). Since you brought his name up tho; kinda surprised he isn’t at least on the PS – since Ghee got activated after the Hall injury.
Maualuga might have been the second best player on the defense after Atkins in the Cleveland game.
He was flying around all over the field, and led the team in tackles. There was one missed tackle I can think of, but the runner made a nice move which slowed him down enough for the rest of the defense to catch up. At least to me, it looks like he’s starting to get really comfortable as the MLB. I just want to see him do it consistently now.
yea thats why i said next year is the year to judge him
It’s a big change for him.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 12:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But my point is that he's playing well right now.
I think the jury is back on him, and he’s a pretty good middle linebacker. I’d like to see him improve (obviously), but I think I’ve seen enough to feel comfortable with him in the middle for a couple more years.
hes had up and down games all season
He obviously has the skills to be a very good MLB. I’m starting to lose the though that he is a going to be a superstar middle backer that I thought when he was drafted though, and just be good.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 1:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that's kinda where I am
I was so excited when he was drafted, but he just hasn’t been very good. He is getting better, and I still hope he will continue to do so. My concern is that he doesn’t tackle well. He hits, but he very rarely wraps up. He gets credit for a lot of tackles because he does have a nose for the ball and often gets there first, but it’s usually up to someone else to finish the job. Too many times the runner gets away. Rey isn’t bad, but he’s barely sniffed what we thought and hoped he was going to be.
Fingers crossed he eventually gets there, but you generally when you see a guy finally develop into a great player it’s only when they had to wait to get on the field. Rey has had plenty of chances and he’s still not there.
He has been well above average.
I dont’ know what you’re looking for exactly. He’s the MLB for a defense that is in the top 5 against the run. Am I missing something? What do you want him to do? Interceptions? He gets in the backfield when that’s the play that’s dialed up. The only real complaint you can make about him is that he gets a little aggressive at times and loses his gaps. But that’s what comes with changing positions – i.e. changing your assignments.
He may never turn into Ray Lewis, but you’re being WAY to hard on the guy. He’s already a very good player and it’s only his third year in the league. He has Pro Bowl potential.
hes had some games above average and some below average.
He has the tools, I said that, but right now he’s just an interchangeable backer. But as I also said next year is when we can really judge him, this year he was still learning.
by JCompton41 on Dec 3, 2011 1:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I feel the same way
I was replying to indesignkat who seems to be ready to cut him. Bengals fans are weird sometimes…First of all, you’re not going to have a Pro Bowler at every position. But when you have a guy who clearly has all the tools but is still learning a bit in only his 3rd year, why would you want to scrap that development and look somewhere else? He’s a hell of a lot better than Aaron Curry. Those are the guys a team can give up on, especially if they’re carrying that pre-rookie-scale first round contract around.
I don't want to cut him
I’m just starting to feel like he’s not who we thought he was. It’s starting to feel like the 5 years we spent hoping Carson Palmer would eventually get back to his old form. Maybe Rey just isn’t that good. He’s ok, middle of the pack really. Hopefully he’ll keep getting better, but he certainly isn’t a top 15 MLB.
by indesignkat on Dec 3, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
USC alum
His tackling looks eerily like the USC alum who starts for the team at the start of the river and wears 43. Just saying.
by david in upstate SC on Dec 4, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
We didn't miss where it counted
And we have solid players throughout the team that rookies don’t need to be forced into playing time elsewhere. It’s better to allow the rookies time to grow and learn then it is to NEED them to play because we have no one better on the team. I don’t think you can judge the rest of this class until a year or two down the road.
That being said, it will always be the Dalton/Green class.
Sounds like most people share my opinion that Moch is the biggest disappointment
I know he was hurt, but presumably he’s been participating fully in practice for at least 4 or 5 weeks now if not longer, so he must be healthy and in football shape. That means he’s just so raw that they can’t find ANY way to use him, not even on ST. And for a 3rd round pick, that’s a little troubling this far into the season. For a guy that was drafted almost exclusively because he had freakish speed and could hit, that sounds like a custom made ST ace. I know our ST has been doing a fantastic job in coverage, but it can always get better.
I really didn’t like the Moch pick on draft day. It didn’t make any sense to me. I knew we were going to be looking at replacing Rey on the outside, but Moch was a one-tool guy. He was a pass rushing specialist and we were drafting him to play 4-3 OLB. He’s too small to play DE, especially when we’ve got guys like Dunlap and MJ with their condor arms flying around from that spot. You’d never take either of those guys out on passing downs. Plus we’ve had a ton of injuries at LB. When Rey was down, there was one week when Howard was dinged up and even BJ wasn’t 100%. You can’t tell me going into that game having an extra body on the sidelines just in case wouldn’t have helped. So it never really made sense how we would ever use Moch. Fast forward to week 13 and hey look, we have no idea how to use Moch. You can’t stick him on the practice squad because a team running a 3-4 would snatch him up in a hot second.
The only thing that makes me think a bit differently is watching Denver’s defense. They’ve got Elvis “The Smurf” Dumervil playing DE and are getting freakish production out of Von Miller playing SAM. But I think that’s more a testament to two phenomenal athlete’s and a team’s need to get them both on the field than it is to it being a really solid scheme.
Though I can't help still be REALLY disappointed in Boling
I know Paul Alexander has some kind of man crush on Nate Livings for some reason, but I think most of us really thought Boling would be a contender to start in his place right away, if not by at LEAST this point in the season. When he was starting for Bobbie opening day it looked like we were right. Now he can’t even dress. If he had shown up and been as good as we had hoped, it could have opened up our draft next year. Now we’re pretty locked in to having to use one of our first 3 picks on a guard. If it hadn’t been for the Carson deal, that could have really hand cuffed us.
It''ll be fine, though.
This is a really good draft for guards. We’ll be able to pick up a starter in the late first or early second.
Andy Dalton: An American Hero
by Pardon_My_French on Dec 3, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Von Miller wsa picked over AJ Green
Only 2 other guys were, that’s not a good comparison.
Moch wasn’t expected to contribute this year except on ST. Lawson was signed to a one year deal to play SLB. Many people have talked about him as a situational pass rusher, but all of our ends have been very good this year. Any team would be happy to get 15 sacks from their defensive ends in 11 games, ours just happens to be spread among our top 5 ends evenly, but becuase of that there is no one to really replace. Our ST have been solid, with Perrman and Miles excelling, Let Moch learn and be ready for next year.
If Boling isn’t starting at LG next year over Livings, I will be disappointed. I think the Williams suspension slowed his development, because he had to learn both positions. Give him a full offseason, and I expect him to start.
Whalen got overshadowed by Hawkins who has done everything that could be asked of a rookie and more. Whalen was injured at a key point when Shipley went down, and Hawkins stepped in, you can’t blame that on scouting.
Finally, Cochart is a true scouting success. A undrafted rookie has contributed well as a second TE, and could be on the team for a long time as a blocking TE to replace Reggie Kelly.
It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain
I didn't know WHalen got hurt. And I do think we did a good job with UDFA.
Hawk and Cochart have been beyond solid.
He had a hamstring
I am not sure of the exact timing between the SHipley injury and the Whalen injury, but I think it contributed to him not being ready at the right time.
It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain
Good points!
Forgot about Whalen’s injury. As far as when Rey M. was hurt and Howard was dinged; with BJ questionable — I will agree with Eric that it was a bit of a surprise that Moch wasn’t in the lineup. If nothing else; for insurance purposes (rememeber the prime time game agaisnt NE a few years back when we lost three or so backers and finished the game with only 2?)
I cant be disappointed by Moch yet
He got injured and then they went out and filled spots with two high quality LBs in Howard and Lawson. On top of that, Special teams tackling has been phenomenal. Are they really going to mess with that when things are going this well?
if you make it to the Super Bowl and lose, is that season considered a disappointment?
If you draft 2 guys who are are having great seasons and are rookie of the year candidates, and solid foundations for your team for a long time to come….is that a disappointment becuase you other picks aren’t pro-bowl rookies?
1) AJ Green – stud
2) A Dalton – stud
3) D Moch – hurt
4) C Boling – backup
The top 2 picks were awesome. The third pick is an injury and unable to evaluate. It’s not a bad pick if a guy gets hurt – that just happens. The 4th pickup is a backup w/the chance to start some day. After round 4, it’s not a disappointment if the guys don’t have excellent rookie years becuase they are lower draft picks.
I didn't ask for anyone to be a Pro Bowl rookie
I asked them to be good enough to put on a jersey on sunday and play a special teams snap or two. I don’t think that’s asking TOO much. And again, Moch has been 100% healthy for at least 4-5 weeks. He’s been practicing fully. His injury was never all that severe. The problem is we don’t have anywhere to put him, which again goes back to my point that he might not have been the smartest draft pick there. I would have rather seen us pick up a DB in that spot. Or even a RB. Top of the 3rd round would have been a great place for a value pick at RB. We had to know at best this was going to be Ced’s last season here. Guess who went a couple picks later? DeMarco Murray.
This is all just for conversation. Clearly, you can’t be unhappy about a draft that gives you two immediate stars who will anchor your team for a generation. I’m just saying that we’ve been pretty good at finding late round contributors lately and we didn’t seem to do such a good job of it this year. And the two great picks we did get were both pretty obvious – i.e. didn’t require a lot of great scouting work. The best accomplishment you can really give our draft room was that they didn’t trade up to get Dalton, but that was almost more luck than anything else. Luck, and Mike Brown being content to settle for Ryan Mallett if it came to that.
Dalton did require scouting and some luck
I took a lot of something to wait for Dalton instead of taking Locker or Gabbert. Either would have been solid picks at number 4, and no one would have qustioned the pick. instead we took Green and Dalton and have had success where others have not.
It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain
And Boling is backing up, statistically, possibly the worst OG in the league
Nate Livings is consistently rated as one of the worst guards in the game. For Boling to not even be pushing for that job right now is a disappointment. When we drafted him, I honestly thought we might release Livings before the season started.
The coaches are obviously not using the same evaluation methods as you or I or Football Outsiders for that matter.
Mathis was rated very highly and they let him walk in favor of Livings. Why does the coaching staff love Livings so much? Maybe he’s really charming. Who knows? My point? The reason Boling is on the bench is more a reflection of the coaches trust in Livings than it is a reflection of Boling’s ability.
Whit
I think part of Living’s allure is that he played next to Whit at LSU — and that they have good chemistry? As for guard; McGlynn played better than Boling but didn’t supplant Livings either. I’m okay with Livings for now. I would love to draft another Steinbach/Montoya this year tho. Kinda funny…the guard position falls right above the long snapper in rank of importance (the bottom). Not many want to pay big money. But, get a really good guard (Steinbach/Hutchinson) — and they’re almost unaffordable.
I think Boling has more upside then
“good depth” and think he still has a time to prove that. I honestly think he played as good as Nate has played. I may go back and watch the film. I remember a couple penalties, but Livings has 2+ penalties a game it seems. With Boling a rookie, and thrown in to the Starting Lineup at the last minute without taking snaps with the 1st team previously and without an Off Season, you almost have to expect Boling would have a couple penalties and make a couple mistakes.
I think Boling is a more natural fit at LG and he started at RG which is another reason I think he may have struggled. It will be interesting to see his progress in the off-season and next Training Camp. I still doubt he would do worse then Nasty Nate Livings
I don't know your team very well
But, usually the sign of having a good team, is when your draft picks don’t get significant time until their 2nd or 3rd years.
Either way, if you can get 2 players out of any draft that are sure starters and probably future PBers, you’ve had a damn fine draft
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Dec 2, 2011 9:49 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
+1
Our first two picks were so good we could probably look back in 5 years and not find anyone else that they should have drafted in those spots. That’s pretty rare. The rest of the draft.. meh. We’ll see. I didn’t like Moch going so high, but if he turns into DeMarcus Ware next season then I won’t complain one bit. If he’s even just a pass rush specialist who comes in and contributes 6-8 sacks a year I’ll be happy. In most of the past 20 years that would be 3-5 more sacks than anyone else on the team. I’m still hoping that Boling will be ready to start next year and that another guard is brought in to man the other spot, since Williams will be retiring soon and Livings has a terminal case of being Nate Livings.
Moch was drafted for development not immediate impact
Only time will tell if he is a good pick.
It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. ~ The Brain
Just crazy to say that this draft is disappointing...
AJ and Andy are beasts… that in itself makes the draft a GREAT draft. Moch has been hurt, and its not disappointing that he doesn’t dress… that just says we have some good depth and special teamers playing. Would I rather have DeMarco Murray? Hell yeah, but I dont think that Moch was a bad pick they were just picking BPA basically and not like we were set at linebacker at that point. We picked up LBs in FA and they are working out really well for us… if they hadn’t worked out or hadn’t signed THAT’s when Moch would be playing (as long as he wasn’t hurt) but we don’t NEED him to step up RIGHT now as a rookie. That’s a good thing not a bad thing. As for Boling, he is a 4th round pick, and I don’t think anyone was expecting him to come in and start as a rookie. He will be a good guard I think in the future (hopefully) but only time will tell. Way to early to say that its a disappointment at this point.
also
I don’t like to think about the RBs that were available when they drafted Moch. DeMarco Murray, Roy Helu (who I was screaming for), Kendall Hunter, Delone Carter, Taiwan Jones… most of all because if we had drafted any of them I guarantee they’d have had just as much playing time as Moch as had. The coaches are in love with Benson for some godawful reason.
Benson
I think the reason they wanted to bring back Benson was because they probably figured he’d be carrying the offense (similar to or even more than in 2009). Roy Helu would have been a good pick, but I have this strange feeling that the coaching staff actually tries to keep Benson happy (and will continue to do so till end of this season, after which I expect them to cut him loose) by not getting anyone that he might consider as competition to his starting role.
A familiar face...
I don’t think you could have a rookie qb, WR, AND RB! Benson is better than half, maybe, three quarters of the league’s rb’s.
Sorry, don't see it with Benson
He’s definitely in the bottom third of RBs, IMO. He doesn’t break many tackles. He doesn’t have break away speed. He can’t pick up ONE yard on 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1. He can’t catch out of the backfield.
How do you see him as better then 50-75% of the RB’s in the league? I assume you mean that he’s better then 50-75% of starting RB’s. If you just meant he’s better then 50-75% of all RB’s in the NFL then that’ pretty much sums it up since he’s starting on a potential Playoff team.
i dont know any stsrting backs i wouldnt trade benson for.
Can’t think of any off the top of my head.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 11:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Probably would also, LOL
I’m so ready to move on from Benson. He’s just not a good RB in the NFL, IMO.
that's simply not true
If all the NFL RBs were ranked against each other accurately, I’d put Benson in the early 30s. That’s based on his typical play, which is subpar. Every once in a while he seems to suddenly care and fights for yardage, but most of the time he only gets exactly what the line opens up for him. If a defender touches him, he goes down. Look at the stats, sites like pro football reference rank the broken tackle rate and Benson isn’t in the top 25. When a defender squares up on Benson he either falls down or else stops in his tracks. Either way he doesn’t get yards after contact, aside from having pretty decent ability to fall forward for a yard or two.
Marshawn Lynch is kinda similar, only better in pretty much every way. He’s fairly mediocre for a while, then he occasionally goes into “beast mode” and looks amazing. Benson is like that, only he goes from far below average to pretty darn good. The only thing Benson has going for him is that he can carry the ball 25 times a game without getting hurt very often. That’s great to have, but if he’s sucking for 20 of those 25 snaps it’s a waste of time. Too many drives die that way. Benson sucks in short yardage situations and hardly ever gets a touchdown. Until his two very good TD runs last week he had a whopping 3 TDs in 9 games. That’s pretty typical for him. Lots of teams are using the passing game to get into the end zone more than ever, but never in Benson’s career has he rushed for more than 7 TDs in a season. Of the top 22 RBs in the league in total yardage, he’s dead last in average ypc. Considering the huge holes the o-line has been opening, and the weak defenses he’s played against most of the season, that’s pretty sad.
Boy I hope. I'd really like to let Benson go after this year
and would like to see the Bengals sign Michael Bush. What’s the chances we sign Michael Bush from the Raiders when he would probably speak to Carson about Cincy before he signed any contract he would otherwise consider?
players will look at the core of players we have and actually want to play here
Maybe not this offseason, but as long as dalton doesn’t take a giant step back year 2 players will want to come to cincy.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 11:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I agree, just not sure about Bush who I would really like to have
Reality isn’t important. It’s what Bush “perceives” after speaking to Palmer.
I don't think Oakland will be able to afford him.
He’s going to command similar money to Darren McFadden and no team can carry two salaries like that in their backfield.
I like Michael Bush, but for me, if you’re going to go after a top free agent RB, I’d shoot for the best – Matt Forte. He would be an animal in this offense. Tremendous hands out of the backfield, can even split out on occasion. Gruden would be a kid in a candy store with all of the packages he could put together.
Bush is more of a pure power runner, and a really really good one. But Forte can handle that and add the receiving threat. But even as I say al of this, I’d rather find our new feature back int he draft. It might mean an extra year before this team is in full-on championship mode, but it eliminates any possibility of disrupting the chemistry that Dalton and Green are bringing. Draft a guy who can come in and develop from the ground floor with them. By the time it’s all clicking, it will be THEIR team – not the team that needed a Matt Forte or Michael Bush to make it work.
Forte is weird
I’ve watched games and thought “why do people rave about this guy?” and then suddenly he tears someone up for 180 yards. Maybe it’s just the perpetually inept Bears offense, but no one looks good there. One thing the stats show on Forte is that he gets into the end zone even less than Benson, which is scary.
Cobb's good
But how well can you REALLY evaluate receivers when they’re playing in that offense? I’m pretty sure I could put up ridiculous numbers if I was catching balls from Aaron Rodgers this year.
Paul Alexander's
Love Affair with Nate Livings is the reason Nate is starting. Otherwise I think that Mathis would have started last year. I’m worried that they won’t replace Nate next year. Hopefully Jay Gruden demands a Guard to replace Nate.
just for fun
Bengals 2011 redraft.
Green- of course
Dalton- of course
Murry- of course
Marcus cannon- could start over livings easy, as well Andre smith insurance. Would be higher if not for his lymphoma.
Richard Sherman cb Stanford- playing better than any rookie cb this year. Was thinking denarius Moore but figured can’t go 5 straight offense.
Brian rolle lb osu- lb depth and can play.
Jimmy Wilson cb Montana- the guy who went to jail for shooting his aunts boyfriend but was aquitted because it was ruled self defense. Guy can play.
Herzlich lb bc- shouldt have fell near this far.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 10:54 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Can you imagine if we had drafted DeMarco Murray?
Three OROTY candidates on one team at QB, WR, and RB?
they might not have brought him back if they drafted murry
This is obviously an ideal world draft where everything goes perfect.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 11:11 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think indesignkat meant that Murray would have been a 4th string RB possibly playing ST at best. With Peerman, we at least have a chance of getting a future starting Safety (kidding!!!)
because
they seem dead set against letting anyone compete with Benson for the starting job. When he’s missed games, which in his defense has been rare, he’s been outplayed. Kenny Watson and Larry Johnson were both better than Benson, but neither got a shot.
I won’t be pissed if they bring Benson back again next year, but I will be pissed again if they refuse to make him compete for the starting job. I’m sick of having the RB with the worst YPC and lowest TD % simply because he can carry the ball without getting hurt.
I'll be pissed if they bring back Benson
There’s absolutely no excuse for it. His contract is up, he is CLEARLY on the decline in every single measurable way, he can’t stay out of trouble off the field, and he is the ONLY negative voice in the locker room. I love watching the interview videos on Bengals.com, but when I see one of Ced I instantly skip it. He’s the real life Smash Williams (Friday Night Lights reference, in case you didn’t get it). The guy honestly believes he should be carrying the ball on every single snap and doesn’t understand what makes an offense run. I know people give him a lot of credit for 2009, but I don’t think he’s ever been anything but average here.
With what we have going for us now, he’s the one holdout from the me-first era. Flush it down. Too many good RB’s in this draft.
They seemed pretty dead set on bringing Benson back
With AJ and Dalton clearly starting from day one, Marvin wasn’t about to lean on Bernard Scott and ANOTHER rookie to carry his entire running game…which at the time could have potentially been the only offense we had.
but benson might not have got his 2.5 mil extra, and not resigned
And might have went with a smaller name vet, and then split carries more.
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 12:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Besides, ML and co. wanted to draft Daniel Thomas (groan)
I’m not sure that Lewis really has an eye for talent at the RB position.
thats a great point
Perry over sjax, can’t be sure on how kenny irons would have worked out either
by JCompton41 on Dec 2, 2011 1:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I wanna see...
Peerman get a few runs in a regular game. Thought Seattle, but not sure he got any plays from scrimmage, did he?
there has to be a reason for him here besides a 4th RB and a boom stick on STs
Peerman needs to get some carries maybe vs the rams where every RB has a Probowl day…
by Bengalsfan024 on Dec 2, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't get any carries
I know he’s a stud on Special Teams but I’m still confused on why he couldn’t get a handoff or two every once in a while. He seems to be a tough nosed Football player. I can always find a spot on my football team for those kind of players, though I guess we have found a spot for him on Special Teams.
thank you
I was really loooking forward to seeing him in that game and he didn’t get a single carry. He looked very good in preseason, a bruiser, exactly they way people describe Benson for some unfathomable reason.
You guys are rediculous.....
Why havent our draft picks see the field…
A: we havent been in such a bad situation to have to force them on the field…
Dalton and Green have to play because even as rookies they are the top talent at their positions the rest though.. Boiling.. Not needed (debatable with livings but still needs strenght developement) Moch We all concluded at the beginning of the year this was a ST’s year only for him… the D is top 5 so hes not needed at LBer yet. and our ST’s have been outstanding so let him develope a bit more…
Sands With 6 safties on the roster let our coaches get him poslished before we force him in there (again if it isnt broken dont fix)
Whalyen (cant activate everyone and the other WR’s are ahead of him at this point ST’s is a big factor)
Finlay (PS i think 7th rounders are slim to make it anyway)
How are you disappointed? disappointed that are team is good enough not to have to play all its rookies from day 1?
disappointed that the 2 rookies playing are constantly up for weekly/monthly awards? and lead us to a 7-4 record?
Disappointed because well i cant think of any reason to be disappointed….
Disappointment is Saved for 2 or 3rd year players still struggling to get on the field like simpson till this year or coffman. but this season isnt over. and we have solid depth so wishing these kids to play is wishing injury to a solid starter on a Top 5 D…. rediculous….!!!
sorry
if it’s isn’t broken, don’t fix?
You don’t think our glaring weakness in the secondary is broken? They’re not a terrible unit, but they are obviously the weak spot on the defense, even before Hall went out for the year.
I agree that it’s a good thing if you can let your draft picks develop, but it hurts to think about the quality RBs that we thought were going to be good (Murray, Hunter, Helu, Carter, etc) and DBs that are playing very well, like that guy in Seattle, that were available when the Bengals started drafting developmental guys. Moch wasn’t expected to go for another round or two. The fact that the team has big needs (o-line, DBs, an NFL-starter-quality RB, a real #2 WR) and a lot of solutions were available and they chose developmental guys is a concern.
I’m not calling for anyone’s head, except maybe the owner, but I have come to expect better from Bengals drafts since Marvin took over. Round 3 on, obviously.
like i posted in my re draft
Marcus cannon would be a starter for us, murry would be a starter for us, in an ideal world where the coaches would let him, Sherman the cb from Seattle would be playing, jimmy Wilson cb in Miami would be playing, denareus Moore would be a play maker for us. Moch wasn’t ready to start, and we had needs where starters were sitting for us. Obviously hind sight is 20/20 with these guys, but we had needs there, and all those players were graded higher them where they went other than maybe Sherman.
by JCompton41 on Dec 3, 2011 1:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
right
a lot of the guys that are putting up good games this year, like Murray and Helu, were expected to be good. Was I the only one scratching my head when Dontay Moch was drafted? I hope it turns out, but at the time it looked like a reach for a guy that will need a lot of work when there were game-ready guys available. In retrospect, those guys still look pretty darn good while Moch hasn’t been on the field. I get he was injured, but he’s been healthy for a few weeks hasn’t he?
i.dont even mind him not being on the field
Because he’s not needed, that’s why I don’t get drafting him.
by JCompton41 on Dec 3, 2011 5:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't see the class as a disappointment--
Obviously Green and Dalton are the “real deal”—right there I consider the class a success. The NFL draft is such a crap shoot, to have two top picks perform so well in their rookie years is almost miraculous.
Boling filled in adequately early on and as far as the rest, a lot of it is a numbers game. Some guys have to be on the inactive list—that’s the reality of it, and you have to dress the guys you feel most comfortable playing and that can be used in multiple roles (special teams, pressed into starting role due to injury).
I just think it’s way to early to assess the later round picks.
It's too early too tell
but I know what your saying. You would think that atleast one of the other Rookies would have gotten some playing time, even if it was on Special Teams.
I don’t think this can be a knock on the Scouting dept. actually. Most of the players were considered good picks in the slots that they were choosen. It’s not like we reached on a player. We also didn’t have an offseason for the other rookies to get acclimated to the NFL and this team. I know your going to say the QB and WR did and both are some of the toughest to transition to in the NFL. I think that just says that much more about the type of players we got in those rounds. Dalton is a gym rat with an excellent football mind who has had the Playbook for a long time prior to the other Rookies. Green is getting by a lot on being a lot more athletic then his defenders(just imagine how good he will be as he learns the intracacies of WR!).
I stil think Boling has potential and also Moch. Those two especially. They may never turn out to do anything, but with the shortened off-season it’s too early to tell. Remember this team signed a couple LB’s so Moch was going to be low on the depth chart this year either way. It’s actually pretty tough to jump into the league and be a Guard on an Offensive Line, especially considering Boling was thrown into the starting lineup at the last minute. An Offensive Line needs Training Camp and time together for them to “gel” as we often hear. Give them time and then we’ll decide if they are a disappointment.
Moch just seems like an NFL Special Teams player designed in a laboratory
I really thought that’s why we drafted him. If the guy can really run a 4.3 forty and hit like a linebacker, there’s no excuse for him to not be a stud kick coverage player. Personally, I don’t think he ever ran a 4.3. I seem to remember there being some skepticism about that after we drafted him and no one could ever seem to find any concrete numbers.
he ran the fastest out of all the Lb in the draft this year im believe cant remeber in the 4.4 4.5 range
but i never liked the picked and alot of experts said he wouldve been avail in the 4th and maybe the 5th round
by rudebengal18 on Dec 5, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
another thing about moch
Obviously zimmer had to love him. No other way we take him in the 3rd round. That has to mean something. Maybe he will be a nothing, but like we all say about Mays, or anyone else, if zimmer thinks he’ll be good, I will let him have him.
by JCompton41 on Dec 3, 2011 3:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I can't really agree with you
The draft class was amazing. In the first year how often do you see guys middle to late rounds perform? The fact that we got two players that have performed like veterans out of the first couple of rounds is great. Hold you opinions until guys have a couple of years to develop…or at least one year…
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