Why Dalton is Better Than Palmer
In a word, pocket presence (I guess that's two words).
It seems so long ago when we used to call Palmer elite that I barely remember that player. I recall him moving around better in the pocket and even showing some straight-line speed once he decided to run with it, but all of that seemed to die after Kimo Von Oelhoffen obliterated his knee and destroyed his confidence. Since that fateful moment, Carson has been sacked 130 times and suffered through many injuries and pains. From '06-10, he never gained back the instinctual third eye needed to avoid sacks, turnovers, injury and ultimately losses. Any comfort in the pocket was, and still is, a very tenuous sense of safety for him. When things get hairy, most times his eyes come off the receivers and he goes down for a loss on the play; escape ability is not on his scouting report.
That isn't to say the man is completely devoid of such skills. As hard-edged as we Bengal fans might be toward old No. 9, he is still an adequate NFL quarterback. I think Raider Nation got a little tipsy from the kool-aid when the native son first returned to California—they were positively bathing in the stuff—but his arrival did instill a heavy dose of credibility to Oakland's season once Jason Campbell went down.
Since his donning of a silver helmet, though, Carson has been fair at best. Sure, he's in a new system with new receivers a new offensive line and so on, but watching him play, he's the same quarterback as last year. I think fans on both sides of the trade wondered aloud if the change of scenery would kick-start the magic for him again; if Palmer really was the shackled phoenix waiting for another chance to burn, or just another QB in the later portion of an okay career. He still makes some good throws and occasionally surprises me with his play-making ability, but he also still frequently has his what-were-you-thinking moments and has not yet led his new team to a comfortable position within their division.
On the other hand, the force is strong with Andy Dalton. When the pocket breaks down behind him he can feel it. It isn't something that can be taught—you either have it or you don't—and Red's got it. His calmness has guided an offense through seas that should have been stormier for a rookie Bengal quarterback. His play has been nowhere near perfect—he must improve on his accuracy—but his intangibles are what excites the onlookers.
What I like so much is his balance between playing wily yet careful football. He plays with a backyard style, allowing his instincts to guide him into the right position to make a play, but then if he isn't satisfied with the coverage he sees as he moves around, he lofts the ball out of bounds and lives another day. His game-management skills are more consistent and trustworthy than are Palmer's and he knows his limitations on his throws.
As for his throws, I feel that while Palmer can throw farther, Dalton can throw faster. Dalton's delivery is shorter and he can really zing it on close-range throws. His deep balls are not yet amazing—Jeff Blake remains the best in that category in Bengal lore—but he gets a lot of help by his tall and supremely talented outside receivers (mostly AJ Green) when he just hucks it up there for them.
I also like his leadership skills more. While Carson always said the right things, from the outside, he never seemed to embrace the one-of-the-guys mentality. There was Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis, Carson Palmer and everyone else. The Bengals may have thrust this persona on the guy and demanded he conduct himself as more than just another player, but Dalton goes about his business in a humble and unassuming way. He shrugs off the negative and laughs easily. He's comfortable around large groups of fans; he's big when he needs to be and small when he needs to be, and that's not easy for everyone. The city loves him, the media loves him, and his future is solid gold as of now.
It wouldn't be fair to omit the fact that Dalton is playing under a much more sensible playcaller than what Carson was subjected to for his entire Bengal tenure. Perhaps Jay Gruden could have revived No. 9's career and put up the same kind of wins, but Hue Jackson had a sterling reputation as a playcaller before Palmer arrived. Once Carson was a Raider, Hue said he would install some Bengal stuff in the playbook to ease the transition, but I think that has been part of the problem for CP3. The old Bratkowski way never came to any success, yet Oakland looks like Bengal West with the likes of Palmer, Jackson, Chuck Bresnahan and even T.J. Houshmanzadeh. Once Chad Ochocinco hits the market again would anyone be surprised to see him as a Raider? I think Rudi Johnson is available too if they're interested.
When Palmer "retired" and Dalton was drafted, we figured it would take some time to get back to watching a competitive quarterback in Stripes, but the kid dazzled from the get-go. By Week 14, Dalton underwent a winning streak, a losing streak, some squeak-out wins and heartbreak losses. He has displayed a ton of heart, poise and composure, a stronger arm than most had thought, solid mobility, and most importantly, innate pocket presence.
Since Palmer has begun to play football again, he has displayed everything he was last year: a turnover machine who does not excel at improvising and consequently has trouble winning games.
I'll take the ginger, please.
Mojokong—and I still can't believe what they traded for him.
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I have not even read the article
and I feel like this question is already answered. So now i will read it
AD to AJ = TD!!
by Toasted_Orange_Monster on Dec 16, 2011 4:06 PM EST reply actions
You sir are a heck of a writer...
The one point you made about Gruden making good decisions as opposed to Bratkowski really sticks out to me. Blindly throwing the ball down the field aside, Gruden just seems to do a way better job at adjusting. It seems like every half time we come out and have a good drive. Maybe we are still in the honeymoon phase but I think Gruden deserves a lot of the credit for Dalton’s development and I would hate to lose him. Honestly I think I would take Gruden over Zimmer if we could choose. Feel free to tear me apart for saying that.
Zimmer is a better option
Under Zimmer the bengals D has improved from on of the worst in the league to one of the best!
We wouldn’t have had this kind of season (neither in ‘09) if Zimmer’s D hadn’t stopped the opposing offense’s!
Still hope that Zimmer becomes Headcoach with Gruden as the headcoach ass. and Marvin Lewis as the GM!
- then MB could sit back, collect the income and let the fans watch Bengals in super bowl ’14
by Christian Gaarde Nielsen on Dec 17, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
nailed it
The biggest difference is pocket presence, as you say. I don’t remember Carson ever having pocket presence, though. I remember saying after the 2005 season that he was obviously the 3rd best QB in the league after Manning & Brady, and the drop behind him was pretty steep, but he lacked the ability to sense pressure. It wasn’t a big deal, since his arm was so great and the rest of the offense was very potent. Him standing still and fumbling the ball when a pass rusher came up behind him would hurt, but the offense was good enough to make up for that happening occasionally.
The 2nd biggest difference is his decision making. I actually get frustrated sometimes with how Dalton is content to throw it 3 yards on 3rd and 10, or throw it away on 3rd down. Aside from the occasional deep pass where he trusts the receiver to fight for the ball, he doesn’t take risks. Palmer, on the other hand, developed into a guy who locks onto one target and throws it to him no matter the coverage. For him it was obvious that getting rid of the ball before he got hit was FAR more important than where he threw it.
The 3rd biggest difference you also mentioned, his release. Palmer still throws hard once in a while, but after his elbow got messed up most of his passes were lobs. Even short passes were slow and easy to pick off. Dalton gets rid of the ball quickly.
Sometimes its still hard to believe
That Palmer is gone. He was my favorite QB by far. God blessed him with a cannon hooked to the right side of his body. If it wasn’t for that injury who knows what could have been. I still think that the Steelers are wearing our ring. I was even on Palmers side untill I saw him in that Raiders uniform and thats when reality set in. I like Dalton and his style of play is what the Bengals needed. Some QB come in the NFL at their celling and have a couple good yrs until the opposition figure him out. Dalton I believe is different, he is just getting started. I can see alot of room for improvement and think he will do what it takes to get us to the promise land. I don’t think he will ever throw those Palmer type 40 yrd ropes or those dimes in the smallest of windows but he knows how to win and thats all that matters.
by Bigcatdaddy on Dec 16, 2011 4:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions
IMO the reason I am so high on Andy is that.................
The things that cannot be coached are his strong suits. His weakness are things that can either be coached and learned with experience or worked around as is the case with the “40 yard ropes”. Those strong straight and long passes are a good thing but they are not a neccessity. There have been a lot of great QBs that didn’t have strong long distance arms.
As many here may know, my favorite QB is Johnny Unitas. Andy is one of the few QBs I have seen who kind of reminds me of Unitas in his leadership, coolness and confidence in the pocket. Andy will get better. Carson is probably as good as he will ever get. That is the difference.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
I agree
Dalton is a team QB and that what we need. Palmer in his prime could make plays with his powerful arm. I guess what I’m trying to say is their just different. Both could and can keep you in games but with different skill sets. IMO Palmer made wr look good and Andy will need a good wr. I am not ragging on Dalton he is good and going to be great.
by Bigcatdaddy on Dec 16, 2011 5:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Completion percentage has to improve
I am amazed every Sunday at many of The Red Rifle’s capacities. I realize he intentionally throws incompletions to avoid negative plays, however his completion percentage is too low to have consistent offense a la Brady, Brees, Rogers. If he could shoot is average up 10 points our 3rd down % and passing yards would start carrying the team the same way Saints, Pats, etc. do. The elite teams don’t have mind boggling defense numbers or have to stop 4th quarter drives to win. They control the clock and outscore their opponents. If Andy takes the completion % step, we will be serious contenders for years to come.
it's his weakness and his strength
yes his completion percentage isn’t as high as you generally want in a good QB, and he seems perfectly content to throw it away on third down, but the alternative is a guy who forces passes where they shouldn’t go. I think his completion percentage on third down will improve greatly when/if he develops more trust in Gresh and gets Shipley. Would you feel confident throwing to Simpson or Caldwell and trusting them to fight for the ball?
Well, he should improve
and he WANTS to be here, makes him better in my book
get your ass out there and pop em in the mouth, and if that don't work knee em in the nuts
How is bresnahan still in the NFL?
Anyway, Once Carson left and I took out my homeristic view out of the picture, I realized that he was just an average quarterback with us. I couldnt admit it while he was still here. I think many of us were just waiting for 05 Palmer to come back but it just wasn’t going to happen. We kept wanting those great feelings from 05 to return, but it went unfulfilled. All of the apologists for Carson (myself included) just couldn’t admit he was average. I still find myself following him in Oakland though and I can’t lie that every time he throws a pick, I crack a smile. Dalton is the future now and I am excited. I want the jungle rocking again. I want people to be proud that they are a Bengals fan. I want a superbowl, damnit. Yes, i said SUPERBOWL. Time will tell.
+ 100 perfectly put
Myself like most of you I’m sure are very passionate about our players. Sometimes it’s hard to see that a player needs to go for the good of the team. Even when they do it’s impossible to not think of something good they did in the Orange and Black. Like I stated before not only did the Steelers steal our ring they took our QB.
by Bigcatdaddy on Dec 16, 2011 5:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions

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