offensive philosophy going into the draft
by ephram on Jan 19, 2012 9:56 AM EST
Email
PrintThe NFL seems to be coming to an era where the days of 1 (or even 2) feature back (getting 20+ touches a game) is slowly being replaced by the offense that relies on several backs (each getting 5~15 touches a game). The top 6 scoring offenses in the NFL this season all used RBBC (running back by committee) systems without a true feature back on their roster. The Bengals are at a point where it’s probably time to let Ced go, and behind him they have B Leonard & B Scott, who each have good attributes, but neither of whom is a traditional feature back.
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So the Bengals are at a point where a decision must be made.
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Advantages of having 1 stud Feature back:
*You only need 1 guy to do everything (ala L McCoy, Jones-Drew, Steven Jackson, Chris Johnson, etc...)
*It’s easy when I’m a fan buying a jersey
*it’s much easier to draft a RB from that team for my fantasy football team
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Advantages of having a multi-back system:
*Not so dependent on 1 guy to do everything so you’re better protected from injury to your RB
*Not so dependent on 1 guy to do everything so you’re in a better position as a team when free agency comes up
*You can utilize the key strengths of each RB in the aspects of the game where they excel (for example, the Saints use Sproles who is great at pass catching, Ingram who is very good at short yardage, Ivory for end runs, P Thomas for blitz pickup) and the sum of each guy specializing in his area of greatness can be better than 1 RB who is good at everything but not great at them, and is trying to do all of them.
*This evolution already took place in baseball (no longer are you burning out a starting pitcher who throws 9 inning games, but now you have middle relievers, setup men, left handed specialists, closers) although some teams were slow to adapt. It’s now taking place in football, although some teams are slow to adapt.
*It works – the top 6 NFL offenses this year all used RBBC setups of 3~4 guys running the ball for them (except San Diego who only used 2 RB’s).
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Looking at the 2012 draft, guys like Lamar Miller & Trent Richardson are being listed as 1st round picks because they are the prototypical “complete” backs who are “feature” backs, who can run 20+ times a game and perform the various aspects of the RB position (run between tackles, speed, short yardage, blitz pickup, catch the ball). On the other hand, there are many other good RB’s who would work very well in RBBC systems.
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Reading most of the posts on CJ it seems like the consensus is to use 1 pick on a DB, and the other on either a RB or O-Line. There are 2 diverging paths to go down: take a feature back but neglect the O-Line....or....get a non-feature back to put into a RBBC rotation but behind an improved O-Line.
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With that in mind, the poll question is rather simple. What’s more important? Building the O-Line and using various RB’s that we get in middle to late rounds who can each fill various roles, and run behind that great O-Line?.....OR.....Draft a stud feature back and use stop-gap O-Linemen like McGlynn & Livings?
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This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Cincy Jungle's writers or editors.
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I think you are misunderstanding
These teams that you are trying to emulate (NO, Pack, Pats), don’t have a RBBC by choice, they do it BECAUSE they don’t have a feature back.
The Saints traded up to the first round last year to get Mark Ingram, with the hope that when healthy he will be a feature back.
The Pack were pumped about Ryan Grant that first year he was playing well, and used him as the feature back, until he got injured and has not been consistent. Now go to their SB nation site, and ask what they want in this years draft. If they didn’t have the worst defense in the NFL, 100% would probably say “feature back”, as it stands it’s probably 50%.
Non-coincidentally, these teams are forced to pass 90% of the time because of their ineffective running game. Yes, it seems that RBs are no longer getting 30 carries a game, but a feature back getting 20-25 is not uncommon, and will never go away (NFL fads seem to be cyclical).
Meanwhile the 49ers and Ravens have a pretty important game this weekend that their respective feature backs are preparing for.
Me too lol
"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, I then acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."
by Dwight Carter on Jan 19, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
GB took Grant as a UFA, Starks was a low pick & Saine was a UFA. So it’s not like they’re trying to get these elite feature backs in the draft, but are just taking what’s left over.
I didn’t get NO taking a plodding, power guy like Ingram if their intent was to use him as a feature back. I like how they used Sproles and the others to offset where Ingram is weak.
I tend to be of the mindset that RB > O-Line in high school. In college, they’re fairly equal in terms of how successful they make your running game. But by the time you reach the NFL many of the RB’s on rosters are “good”, and they are only going to be as successful as their O-Lines….which is why teams that are successful at running the ball can just plug guys in and out, becuase the RB’s are only as good as their lines. My personal view.
plodding?
He was first in the shuttle drills last year at the combine. First. In an acceleration drill.
You need to watch players before you label them.
I agree with you in principle, If I were in a position of power forming a new team I would build from the inside out. If, however, I was on a team with one hole in the line and the equivalent of Dom DeLuise in the backfield. I would emphasize getting a quality back early, as well as filling in the hole on the line at some point
you are correct
Ingram isn’t exactly the William the Fridge Perry in the backfield, but i was exaggerating to make a point.
i see the point and agree somewhat
I would rather have a stud line and average backs, than a average line and stud backs. The stud line in the draft is Kalil and Decastro. Knoz, Glenn are iffy, I guess Martin and Rieff would be good picks if they’re available. But a back like Richardson falls, I take him over an decent lineman.
by JCompton41 on Jan 19, 2012 10:20 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Miller is a first round pick for his game breaking ability. Not because he’s an every down RB. At Miami, they had a 3rd down RB that replaced him. Miller CAN be that guy eventually, but I think he will need to share the load at first.
RBs like Polk, Wilson, Martin & Pierce all can play 3-downs and be feature RBs. It’s the RBs after those 6, where you start to find true RBBC types.
But I agree, and even with Richardson, I would like a real #2 option. Nobody wants Richardson carrying it more than 300 times a season.
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by Joe Goodberry on Jan 19, 2012 10:48 AM EST via Android app reply actions
I'm curious Joe?....Where would you put Montee Ball in this yr's Draft?
"What we do in this life echoes in eternity"
Maximus*
by gratefulmax on Jan 19, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
#7
3rd Round pick at best
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by Joe Goodberry on Jan 19, 2012 11:41 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Great. I had heard so many talk about Montee being an "elite" back
and I thought I was either crazy or missing something, cause I as well don’t see him being a top 64 pick.
"What we do in this life echoes in eternity"
Maximus*
by gratefulmax on Jan 19, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Right. He wouldn’t have been. The draft advisory board didn’t give him a 2nd round grade. That’s why he didn’t come out.
Just too many questions. He used to be fat & a power RB. Now he’s this slasher RB? He doesn’t really create on his own. His O-Line is the shit. What’s his top speed?
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by Joe Goodberry on Jan 19, 2012 11:58 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Agree wholeheartedly with this thinking.
Building a stud O-line is priority, not only because we can run with who ever we want to run, but we can protect Dalton too.
What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.
As you pointed out also...
one of those 1st round picks should be solely for drafting a CB. So the other one in my opinion should be solely for an O-lineman.
What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.
Not so sure.
I wouldn’t want to be blinded by CB is mandatory. If there is a CB like JJoe or Hall type skill then sure pick him. If not, pass and build the Oline and Dline while leaving CB to later in the draft.
At 17 and 21 there are plenty better than Hall or J Joe.
What do you do when there's no way out? Find a way to get deeper in it.
x
"It’s time people started realizing just how good a player Carlos Dunlap already is, and that starts with the Bengals. They gave him a season-high 58 snaps and what was the result? Carnage on the right side of the Seattle line." -Pro Football Focus
Get a RB who cares about his team
and is well-rounded, and you instantly have a blocker in the backfield for Dalton
+1
"Shiny. Let's be bad guys."
by KentuckianaBrowncoat on Jan 22, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Scott
I don’t think it matters who the Bengals sign in FA or draft, because I think they want to get Bernard Scott more touches next season. I could see a 70/30 or even a 60/40 split between the new running and Scott with the new RB getting the most touches.
i would like them to use B Scott more
but they only got him double digit touches twice all season (except for the Benson suspension game)
I wouldn't draw a straight line between RBBC and offensive success.
You said
*It works – the top 6 NFL offenses this year all used RBBC setups of 3~4 guys running the ball for them (except San Diego who only used 2 RB’s).
The top offenses this year were the Saints, Patriots, Packers, Eagles, Lions and Chargers by yards. Those teams had great offenses because they had great quarterbacks. Teams with feature backs – Jags, Vikings, Raiders, Bears, 49ers, Titans, etc. – had terrible/average QB play this year.
Plus I’m not sure how you don’t count LeSean McCoy as a feature back unless you’re counting Vick as a RB. He’s LT 2.0.
I don’t totally disagree with you about RBBC, but put a guy like Aaron Rodgers on a team like the 49ers you’d almost definitely have a top 5 offense.
by Animal_Like_Football on Jan 19, 2012 11:18 AM EST reply actions
In general, I agree that a good offensive line is more important to the running game.
But I would take one great running back over three or four average ones any day.
by Animal_Like_Football on Jan 19, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
Most of the top offenses also were fairly poor in the run game. Other than NO who was at #6 in the run game, the others are pretty bad really. Pats at #20, GB at #27, Det at #29 (our running game was #19 btw). They are the good offenses because their psasing game is so good. Other offenses with good running games are Eagles (#5), Minnesota (#4), San Fran (#8), Chicago (#6), Baltimore (#10) ,Oakland (#7). These are all teams that have a feature back that gets 20ish touches per game. Put those running games with an elite passing game.
Also saying that we do a RBBC with DeCastro and Konz or draft Richardson/Miller and stick them behind Livings and McGlynn aren’t the right options. It’s more realistically Konz + Glenn + LaMichael James, OR Richardson / Miller + Glenn/Osemele + a DT or safety or CB or WR in the 3rd. Using 2 first round picks on guards would be a pretty bad draft, though, imo.
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by Joe Goodberry on Jan 19, 2012 11:22 AM EST via Android app reply actions
Besides my man crush on Jenkins lol
I’m game!!!
"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, I then acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."
by Dwight Carter on Jan 19, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
email or @ me
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by Joe Goodberry on Jan 19, 2012 12:09 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Michael Bush / Lamar Miller / Brian Leonard / Cedric Peerman
There’s your RBBC!!
"What we do in this life echoes in eternity"
Maximus*
And
We can still build a great line thru Free agency, trade, and the draft. I think toward the end of the season the team was heading in the RBBC direction anyway. The team is going to have a featured back cus of Marv that can take about 15-20 touches a game. I want that but utilyzing the other backs we have would be great which is what was starting to happen. Miller/Trent (featured) in the first CB with second 1st pick, oline 2nd round, and James/Pead/barron (commitee) in the 3rd or 4th… WR via Free agency or later in draft.
"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, I then acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."
I don't think taking a RB in the first means you have to neglect the o-line.
We need to get CB/S/RB/OGx2. That’s five positions of need… more than we can fill in the draft.
If we could pick up the guards in FA, that would be ideal. That would leave RB, S and CB to be filled in the draft.
Also, if you get a Richardson (or Miller), you can still use RBBC – to prolong your RB life span.
I don’t get why we should shy away from Richardson if he’s there. If he’s not, we can roll with the punches. For my money Barron should be the primary target if Richardson isn’t available.
Neglecting in that your passing up on an elite (DeCastro type)
Assuming 1 1st round pick is a DB, then they either get to take a great o-lineman or a great RB w/the other 1st pick.
They can always get a good/decent/mediocre o-lineman or RB later in the draft, but if they get a chance to pick an elite one (like DeCastro or Richardson), the question is which is more important to the success of the offense.
And of course, until free agency picks up and until the combine and post season college all star games run their course….all the mock drafting this early is rather just a pointless way to pass time….
This true...
An elite guard or an elite back… a great, but difficult, decision to have to make.
Also, in each case, the supposed talent drop off from Richardson/DeCastro to the next guy is immense. Same goes with Barron and the next safety.
I would be happy to get both somehow. But there’s no guarantee of anyone coming out of the draft being elite (even Andrew Luck, who will have incredible expectations following Cam Newton’s year), and on that flip side any of them could be elite, given the right circumstances. AJ Green was better than advertised, as was Cam Newton… Mark Ingram was not bad but not what NO was hoping for. Prince was out before he even got going.
It should be interesting watching this draft, and I can live with a variety of outcomes.
it depends on opinion.
I personally think Antonio Allen of South Carolina could be as good or better than Barron. He isn’t as big or as physical as Barron but he is more versatile.
Well, yeah... I have to confess... I don't watch a ton of college football.
So I’m trusting the “public scouts” out there that rank players. I tend to think that the upper rounds are pretty well ranked, and when you get off into the lower rounds it’s all a big mush. That’s really where your team’s scouting department has a chance to shine.
So, when I say “Barron” I’m really just saying "the top ranked safety that most experts agree is a tier above the next safety. I haven’t actually watched a ton of college safeties and come to the conclusion that Barron is the best on my own – not by a long shot.
The exception to this is Blackmon and Weeden. I watch all the OK State ball I can, and I have definite (high) opinions of those guys quite outside of what the experts have to say.
Our recent Drafting History
When we have taken a 1st round back (Chris Perry, Kenny Irons) recently, they have turned out to be costly disasters, however, our early OL, DB picks have turned out fairly well. I think its harder to get a stalwart at OG for 10 years than a back who can be productive, and the OG helps the back be productive, not vice versa. Also, I think Marvin and Mike won’t pick a RB in the first two rounds of this draft, just a gut instinct.
Originally from North Jersey
I live close to the city now, and yourself?
by JerseyBengal on Jan 19, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Central jersey. On the shore. Ha I tried to get that username but it was taken
Just couldnt get into jets or giants when I was younger but when boomer was a jet I was happy to watch him even though he was pasted his prime. I love listening to him on the fan. Those guys r so funny
by njbengalstat on Jan 19, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
Iron's was drafted in the 2nd round
As far as 1st round lineman go Andre is on his last year… Whit was picked in the 3rd round, Bobbie picked up in FA! It’s alll a throw in the dark sometimes when drafting players. Someties you get lucky Atkins 3rd round 2010 and sometimes you dont coffman 2009!!!
"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, I then acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning."
by Dwight Carter on Jan 19, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
My bad about Irons
I meant more of the players drafted in the first 3 rounds, and Andre is a pretty serviceable right guard. By the way, Whit was drafted in the second round, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Whitworth. I agree about getting lucky, but for the most part, I’m a conservative dude when it comes to the draft and I feel like you generally get what you expect with lineman. Although, realistically, I’d be happy with whoever they drafted as long as it is any of the areas of need listed in the fan post here.
by JerseyBengal on Jan 19, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
Kenny Irons was a middle of round 2 pick
When Mikey was making all the picks there were taking a RB every year…
1997 C Dillon 2
1998 M Parker 7
1999 N Luchey 5
2000 C Keaton 4
2001 R Johnson 4
Since Marvin came, they’ve been going about every 2 or 3 years, and Marvin has learned that you don’t take them early, as only B Scott has been halfway decent and he was a 6th rounder. So unless somebody they consider to be absolutely phonomenal falls to them, i don’t see a RB in their future for round 1.
2004 C Perry 1
2007 K Irons 2
2009 B Scott 6
2011 J Finley 7
I think Boiling will get a chance to start.
What people keep forgetting is that we had a young team that missed ota’s and mini camps. It hurts young players but for offensive lineman it puts you back a year. Boiling will be a good player. I think after the offseason and learn more he will be the starter at left guard. So that leaves the right guard position. If they go out and sign one in free agency then they don’t have to draft one until the later rounds. Then the draft opens up more to where you can draft BPA.
Everything about this comment
I agree with.
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by Joe Goodberry on Jan 19, 2012 4:09 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
oh me too! lol
CincyJungle.com Contributor for the NFL Draft
Follow me on Twitter @JoeGoodberry for Bengals & NFL Draft talk
by Joe Goodberry on Jan 19, 2012 7:05 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
We need to re-sign Anthony Collins!!
"What we do in this life echoes in eternity"
Maximus*
We mustn't pigeonhole ourselves into picks
I think we could trade #21 to Eagles for #46 & #51as they are after LB & WR and they won’t get the two their after where they are now.
Use #17 DeCastro, Richardson, Konz or Barron then have 3 picks in 2nd and 3rd round for the others. Pead will be a 3rd. That’ll make 10 picks we should then trade up with our 4th and two 5ths into bottom of 3rd for another quality player use 6 & 7 for BPA
Yes... given how young this team is, I am all in favor of consolodating our lower picks.
If we could bundle our 4th and below picks (I think that’s a 4th, 2 5ths, a 6th and a 7th) for another 3rd that would not be a bad idea at all. If we did it beforehand it would also streamline our scouting needs to 5 picks plus undrafted FAs.
Wouldn't need to use 6 & 7 the point isn't that much on them
the other advantage is we will leapfrop 3rd round Comp picks
I have a gripe about trading 1 of the first round picks
I know that New England likes to trade out of the first round to accumulate picks but the problem with the Bengals doing it is they don’t have enough ELITE talent and game changers. Those guys are usually taken in the first round. Yes, you can still find solid players and diamonds in the rough later in the draft but I would rather take my chances on players that project to be great not serviceably good. We have enough of those players.
I agree if we pick BPA
this includes DE/DT WR and LB. Why pass on someone like Luke Kuechly and I’m a big fan of Jared Crick
I think what we do in free agency will tell us a lot about what the draft is gonna look like.
The teams that are good and stay good are the teams that don’t reach for talent and take best player available. If the Bengals decide to spend some money and fill some holes then they will be able to let the draft come to them, so to speak. What seems to be a positive about this draft is it’s deep at the CB,RB,G,WR and DT positions. We could use players at all those positions. So filling 2 of those holes in free agency, they could then focus using the 2 first rounders to maybe upgrade positions with a potential elite player with a Kuechly,Crick,Brockers or even a player that slips thats too good to pass on.
I think they need to give Nicks a blank check and if he isn’t their biggest priority in free agency then the Bengals have more internal problems than any of us know. With Leon Hall a question mark at this time,they definitely need cornerback addressed with one of the first rounders.
I can't agree on G in FA
Build through the draft there are really good G prospects over next two drafts and paying Collins to stay will be more benficial to us in the long run
I agree if they can't sign Nicks
I don’t think they will sign him but Nicks is a immediate upgrade at a position of need. I would rather break the bank on a dominate starter than over pay Collins just to stay here just to be a backup. If they plan on moving Smith to guard and Collins to RT then your on to something but I don’t see that happening. I think Nicks would be more of a sure thing over the next 3-5 years than anyone that we could draft in the next 2 drafts, except Decastro.
RB's
The best “combo” IMO would be Richardson and Doug Martin. Trent speaks for himself and if you don’t know of Martin I suggest you look up youtube and his profile. I think he’ll have an NFL career like Dalton. Nothing flashy but produces and most importantly he’s A WINNER. I don’t mean in just the obvious W and L’s. His character reminds me of Dalton. Just Win
Having a feature back....
….or at least a back who is in most of the time will make our offense less predictable. If you have a guy who can do everything at least decently it doesn’t give the opposing defense any clues what you’re going to do.
Currently, if Benson is in, it could be a run or a pass, but Benson will most likely not be the receiver unless there’s no other option. If it’s a run, it will probably be going up the middle.
If Bernard Scott is in, it will most likely be a run, with decent odds of him going outside.
If Brian Leonard is in, expect either a screen pass or a run on 3rd down. Either way, he’s probably getting the ball if he’s in.
That’s because we have 3 running backs who are all used for different things. The defense can make an educated guess what we’re planning based simply on who is in the backfield.
If you have a guy that can do all of those things equally well, you aren’t giving away your play when you put him in.
Agree and think the same thing.......
plus, we refuse to ever utilize 2 back formations to disguise anything we do. We’re either Benson/FB, Scott usually by himself or FB and Leonard in on 3rd downs. I think we’ll take a long look at Miller because he supposedly can do all these well.
"The next person you see that throws something, point em out! You don’t live in Cleveland, you live in Cincinnati!"
- Sam Wyche
by The Van Buren Boys on Jan 20, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
If Richardson falls to #17....
then take him, but if not look for DeCastro or Barron…2 guys who could start right away….. Then at #21, BPA… CB, DE, OL, WR, LB… we need help everywhere except QB…
If you put the best running back in the NFL
behind the Bengals 2011 line, he would not do that well.
Attention Mike Brown: One-and-done doesn’t cut it. You will see more empty seats next year if you don’t show the fans you’re trying to win the Super Bowl!
by occams_tiger_teeth on Jan 21, 2012 1:30 AM EST reply actions
What hapens if you put the best RB
behind the Bengals line that gets a 2nd round or 21st overall guard to run behind and Boling can start this year? I love how everyone has this idea that if you pick up a RB 1st you aren’t allowed to upgrade at the Guard position. Boling is a 4th round guy and I think he will start this year. We also have Otis Hudson who could do something, as well as FA, as well as drafting a guy high. We are still going to upgrade the guard position here even if we don’t take a guard with our first pick… Plus it isn’t likely that DeCastro will be there at 17, and he is the only guard that would be worth taking at 17… anyone else would be a reach.
Scott & Leonard behind Decastro > Richardson behind Livings
unfortunately a RB can’t do much w/o a hole to run through (except Barry Sanders)
How bout Richardson behind Konz or Glenn or Osemele or Zeitler?
Where does this idea come from that we aren’t allowed to upgrade at guard if we take Richardson?
Adrian Peterson (maybe the best RB in the NFL) has THE WORST offensive line in the NFL. He still does pretty well. And that’s without a QB or WR threat.
The Bengals don’t have the worst OL in the NFL. Not even sure if its bottom 12.
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by Joe Goodberry on Jan 21, 2012 8:06 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
up the middle Pro Football Outsiders
put them at 30th. So that’s bottom 12 for sure.
Attention Mike Brown: One-and-done doesn’t cut it. You will see more empty seats next year if you don’t show the fans you’re trying to win the Super Bowl!
by occams_tiger_teeth on Jan 22, 2012 3:01 AM EST up reply actions
I meant in terms of talent. Bengals cannot upgrade at LT, C, or RT this offseason. I can think if plenty if teams that wish they could say that.
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Follow me on Twitter @JoeGoodberry for Bengals & NFL Draft talk
by Joe Goodberry on Jan 22, 2012 10:36 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
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