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Around SBN: On Hazards And Hulks And Tigers, Oh My!

Cincy Jungle Mailbag: Trading Up In The Draft, Mario Manningham And The Importance of Cornerback

NASHVILLE TN - DECEMBER 05:  Courtland Finnegan #31 of the Tennessee Titans tackles Maurice Jones-Drew #32 of the Jacksonville Jaguars during the first half at LP Field on December 5 2010 in Nashville Tennessee.  (Photo by Grant Halverson/Getty Images)

Some NFL call the first few weeks of February the "dead period". Others, who look at their glass as half-full, prefer to look at these next couple of weeks as a precursor to the critical moves that their team will make in an effort to better their squad next year. Some NFL fans abhor this period, while for others it's like being a seven year-old during the beginning of December.

For a team that went 9-7 and made the playoffs, there's a lot of work to be done in order to give the team an opportunity to have back-to-back playoff seasons--something they have been trying to attain for quite some time.

Star-divide

Since the Bengals have two first round picks, some are wondering if the team will trade up to get a particular player. I was recently tweeted by Ryan Burns (a good Twitter follow, for the record), editor of Football Sickness and fellow Orange County native, about whether or not I think the Bengals will trade up in the first round:

@iantn84 Literally none of my #Bengals tweeps believes they will trade up. @JoeGoodberry says they NEVER do. What say you, @CUIBengalsFan? 3 hours ago via TweetDeck · Reply · Retweet · Favorite · powered by @socialditto

Under the ownership of Mike Brown, the Bengals' strategy in the first round has been a complete mystery. We've seen them move up and give up picks to grab Ki-Jana Carter (ouch), we've seen them trade back and accumulate picks while drafting Chris Perry (another ouch), and we've seen them stay put with two first round picks and grab two solid players in Brian Simmons and Takeo Spikes. With two late first round picks, nothing would surprise me.

My prediction (and sincerest hope) is that they won't sacrifice those two picks to move up. While there are a number of roster holes, none are so devastating that they need to trade away picks which could become other potential starters. They have their franchise quarterback of the future. They have their monster No. 1 wide receiver. Those are positions that would seem tempting to trade up for and they don't need either in 2012.

Some are suggesting that the Bengals trade up in an effort to get the premier running back in this year's draft--Alabama's Trent Richardson. I think that this would be a grave mistake, even with Richardson's talents. The NFL has put less of a premium on the running back position, so it's remotely possible that Richardson could fall to the Bengals. This draft is also very deep at that position, so with upgrades on the offensive line and other defensive positions, they could draft a back who is deemed a "lesser prospect" than Richardson and have similar results without having to potentially give up another player who could become a major contributor.

Even with the examples I mentioned above, Brown very rarely gives up high picks. Since he isn't very active with the big-name free agents, he holds drat picks in higher regard than most other owners because it's his only sure-fire way to hang on to a talented player for four or five years. So, no, I expect the Bengals to wisely hang onto their picks and take two late first round prospects that could become major 2012 contributors.

One of the areas of need going into the 2012 season for the Bengals is that of a No. 2 wide receiver. Recently, Cincy Jungle's own Jack Cassidy brought up the topic of Mario Manningham potentially filling that role opposite Pro Bowler A.J. Green. A lot of our readers are adamantly opposed to Manningham stepping out of his No. 3 role with the Giants and into a true starting job here in Cincinnati. Images of David Tyree are being evoked with Bengals fans when speaking of Manningham and there are some similarities, though this may be an inaccurate comparison.

Both Tyree and Manningham were Super Bowl heroes for the Giants and both had incredible catches that were crucial to their teams' respective victories. Tyree fizzled out of the NFL after his moment in the sun, and with rumblings of the Bengals possibly being interested in Manningham, these same worries surround this wideout five years later. Take these stats for example: in the 2007 regular season, Tyree had four catches for 35 yards and no touchdowns all season. It was only until the Super Bowl that Tyree had any kind of impact.

By comparison, Manningham had 39 catches for 523 yards and four touchdowns. The year before, Manningham had 60 catches for 944 yards and nine touchdowns. Given these stats, Manningham is by no means in the same league as Tyree and could put up comparable stats to those that Jerome Simpson did in 2011. He wouldn't be my first choice to take over the second wideout spot on this roster, but he has been productive and has performed extremely well on the big stage while becoming a world champion. My gut feeling is that Manningham won't go the way of the David Tyree's, Dexter Jackson's, or Larry Brown's of the world, but rather will be a solid veteran contributor to an NFL roster.

While some positions are becoming less of a priority in the NFL, cornerback is still held at a premium. As I mentioned before, I don't imagine that the Bengals will use picks to trade up in the first round. However, cornerback could be the one position that I see them coveting so badly that they package a deal to move up in the first round for a premier prospect like LSU's Morris Claibourne. I still think that that would be foolish though, give the depth of the cornerback class this year.

The Bengals should be able to grab a quality cornerback where they currently stand--at the middle and end of the first round. There will likely be a run on drafting corners from around fifth pick to where the Bengals sit at Nos. 17 and 21. Even with prospects coming off of the board, the Bengals should be able to grab South Carolina's Stephon Gilmore and North Alabama's Janoris Jenkins. There's also an outside chance that Alabama's Dre Kirkpatrick would be available.

Given the potential choices, I hope that the Bengals stay away from Jenkins because of the character concerns and size. If you listened to the Cincy Jungle podcast this week, you'd have heard that I'm big on Gilmore (as is our own Joe Goodberry). By most accounts, he's got size, can run and tackle pretty well and is scheme-diverse. These are all qualities that Marvin Lewis and Mike Zimmer like out of their defensive backs, so I expect them to give a long look at Gilmore.

Regardless of who they pick, they should have a veteran corner that they target in free agency. Since Stanford Routt became available this week, it added to the deep pool of veteran cornerback talent that will be available. With Kelly Jennings and Adam Jones set to become free agents and Leon Hall nursing an Achilles injury, the team absolutely must bring in a solid veteran that can start, as well as a rookie who can immediately contribute. The AFC North is suddenly stacked with wide receiver talent, so the Bengals need as many talented and able-bodied defensive backs as possible. Routt, Courtland Finnegan, and Brandon Carr could all be guys that are targeted in free agency.

Keep the emails and tweets coming at bengalanthony@gmail.com and @CUIBengalsFan.

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Manningham is a bad idea

for these reasons; even if we do pick him up in free agency he’s going to want too much buck for his horrible bang as a #2 wr. Second off, why spend that kind of money on him, when we could spend the money the way we usually do… on linemen. For the price of Manningham they could pick up 2 or 3 good linemen, especially now that he has a Superbowl ring on his finger because of one lucky catch. Next reason, the wr pool in the draft is so deep that they could pick a wr anywhere from the 1st to possibly the 5th or 6th round that could definitely shock the NFL (tho realistically it should be anywhere from the 2nd or 4th rds). Plus, if they use the luxury of the salary cap right it could change the entire focus of the draft, for instance the guard situation like you all said on the podcast is quite an open field, the same can be said for the defensive end, defensive tackle and offensive tackle positions as well, filling up those spots can totally change the focus of the draft to where they only need to focus on the RB, CB, SS, #2WR & possibly the ILB position (depending on the outcome of rey’s bar brawl situation) and still have the 2 5th, the 6th & 7th round picks to develop some back up spots on the line. With mid 30 million left in cap space they should be able to resign the players they want and have enough to pick up the other linemen they want in free agency, without any complications, but resigning everyone then picking up manningham and maybe a decent O-guard is about all we could muster out after its all said and done. But then again maybe i’m completely wrong and he doesn’t ask for a fortune.

by ARoo on Feb 11, 2012 9:40 AM EST reply actions  

Re signing our players and paying our draft picks shouldn’t cost 25mil. U also have Geathers, Rivers and Crocker u could be cut to free up even more cap space. We have money to re sign ALL our players and still pick up 3-4 big time free agents. Were loaded with cash right now. This where having a REAL GM would’ve been huge for our team.

by pray4gm11 on Feb 11, 2012 10:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Why wouldn’t it? Money comes off books every year. We have couple years to worry about that. We don’t have to sign anybody long term. NFL contracts aren’t guaranteed anyway so if we do we could always cut declining players.

by pray4gm11 on Feb 11, 2012 10:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

your right, just as long as we keep those contracts short with in a year or two, then im cool

but typically if we sign a big time FA, that usually means they go to the higher paid team with the most guaranteed money.

Say we sign this respective players in their respective positions. This is how much they will cost us approximately.

Carl Nicks OG _ 6 years 45 million/ 10 million signing bonus = 7.5 per year
Marques Colston WR_ 6 years 49 million / 10 million signing bonus = 8.1 per year
Lardarius Webb (Restricted) CB 6 yrs 53 million / 10 million signing bonus= 8.6 per year
Marshawn Lynch RB
4 years 28 million/ 10 million signing bonus= 7 Per year

That makes up 31 million of our cap space for at least the next 4 years. And that only covers 4 of the 7 starting positions we need to address in the off season.

We will probably have to set a side 5 million aside for draft picks that leaves use around 7 million to address the other 3 starting spots.

Now in two years when we will want to resign Andy, Geno and AJ

We will have to at least set aside money around 80 million for each of Andy and AJs contracts. And probably around 35 to 40 million for Geno’s contract.

I think when its said and donw, AJs contract will defiantly be the biggest on our team.

AMAS

by AMAS85 on Feb 11, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

bengals tweeps?

should i feel insulted or old for not understanding some new lexicon usage of the language?

"the bengals are not a west of the 104 longitude team."

by palewook on Feb 11, 2012 10:12 AM EST reply actions  

I am not that old and I dont know what that means.....lol

"Mahmoud, Kim Jong, 86 ya sh__ bitches, or Ima do it fo ya"...Luther...Obama's anger translator

by ticalcaldwell on Feb 11, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Twitterer vs tweep. So many Tw words that it's hard to even predict the banathon that could come from it.

Wrong! Conan! What is best in life?

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

by UpStateMike on Feb 11, 2012 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

WR and OL I don't have a problem with getting in Free Agency.

Running Back is not though. You need to get that great RB in their prime, which is usually year 1-3 in their NFL career. I think we need to make it a priority and grab a top 5 RB that is for certain.

That is why I think we use the first two picks to grab a RB and CB. Then we can look for that WR2 and some front line beef.

Wrong! Conan! What is best in life?

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

by UpStateMike on Feb 11, 2012 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

problem with mortgaging the farm for a RB

1 injury can wash that investment away. kijana carter. ’nuff said.

"the bengals are not a west of the 104 longitude team."

by palewook on Feb 11, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

as for Stanford Routt, expect the vikings to make a play for him.

the vikes secondary is in worse shape than ours. they need 2 starters at cb and 1 cb for depth. plus a ss for depth or to compete for starting job in 2012 (they have a guy like crocker for ss, not great in coverage, not really a starter, and just a band-aide for the time being).

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ycn-10952048

"the bengals are not a west of the 104 longitude team."

by palewook on Feb 11, 2012 10:19 AM EST reply actions  

Why would we trade up in previous years when we always had a top 10 pick? Things are a little different this year. If we land a big time g in free agency then we having to look at trading up to get another stud. I would trade up. for a Wr though not RB

by pray4gm11 on Feb 11, 2012 10:23 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

I was just about to complement you on your good suggestions until that

Trade uo for a WR?? I guess it’s a thought, not a good one but a thought. Curious as to what WR you would trade up to get?

by Bigcatdaddy on Feb 11, 2012 1:16 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Prolly Justin Blackmon

Paul Brown Stadium, where everyone's hopes go to die.

by DTFCPDX on Feb 11, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn’t trade up just was saying.

by pray4gm11 on Feb 11, 2012 2:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think the rhetoric around a potential trade up in the first round is a little extreme around here

First of all, I dont’ think anyone’s floating the idea of trading both first round picks to move up into the top 5 to get Richardson. But even if they were, any trade scenario is making the assumption that Richardson is an elite, once in a decade (or 5 years) kind of a prospect. If he turns out to be that kind of player, he’d be worth more than 2 first round draft picks. He’d probably be worth half a draft. If you knew you were getting Adrien Peterson, you would GLADLY give up 2 first round picks. So to say that the potential of giving up a late 2nd round pick when you already have 2 first round picks to get a possibly elite player at a skill position of dire need would be a “GRAVE MISTAKE” I think we’re being a tad alarmist. Yes, Richardson is a gamble. but so is anyone you’re going to draft with that 2nd round pick. And that guy’s going to be rated a whole lot lower on boards because, well, he’s not Trent Richardson. It’s all about context. Atlanta gave up a truckload to get Julio Jones last year. You rarely see that kind of a draft day move, and they were largely applauded for having the guts to do it. You can argue the minutiae of it, and I’m not saying we’re in the same place as the 2010 Falcons this offseason, but the point is that draft day trades when made in the right context by the right team for the right player at the right position can be very shrewd moves. I think if someone like Seattle or Buffalo wanted to move us up into the top 10 for a late 2nd round draft pick to ensure we had a feature running back for the next 5-6 years (a period we should be thinking about going to a Super Bowl or two) that would be a reasonable deal to consider. At the very least, it would not be a GRAVE mistake.

by eric nyc on Feb 11, 2012 11:44 AM EST reply actions  

But your not

Getting Adrian Peterson, your getting Trent Richardson. An uproven, untested college football player who was good in college. He may turn out to be the greatest back in NFL history but for now he isn’t worth 2 draft picks.

"Next season will be better" circa 1990

by Yarin on Feb 11, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

You're missing my point

You don’t know who you’re getting with that second round draft pick, either. Is Trent Richardson worth Chris Perry + Jerome Simpson based solely on potential? Of course he is. THere’s a lot of hindsight going into that statement obviously, but I just think it’s silly to say that it’s a GRAVE MISTAKE to trade a 2nd round draft pick for potentially the best RB to come out of the draft since McFadden. At the very least it is not a mistake that is going to cripple a team that has 5 picks in the first 3 rounds this year. Some people just get a little too worked up about these things and start throwing around words that make it seem like a much riskier move than it actually would be. Personally, I don’t think you could move up into the top 10 with the 17th and 54th pick – i think the top 10’s worth more than that. So if someone were to OFFER that trade, I think it would be a good deal.

by eric nyc on Feb 11, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I think people don’t slow down and think about it enough. They just think of past incidents and don’t like risk reward type scenarios. We will still be getting 2 1st rnd picks and probably the best RB to come out since AP. Now we can stand pat and hope he falls, if not then we’re going to take a big reach for another RB because I can see all the ones we want gone by the bottom of the 2nd. Polk might be there but Miller & Martin will be gone and Pead is a reach for the 2nd rnd. I was thinking what if we put our 17 with next yrs Oakland pick if everyone is so hell bent on keeping this yrs 2nd. There will be some nice G there.

by Bigcatdaddy on Feb 11, 2012 1:26 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Routt

Routt was whistled for 17 PI’s last season. He was a good #2 CB when Nnamdi was on the other side.
I just don’t know if he will be worth the money he will want. Granted he is better than anything we have though.

"Next season will be better" circa 1990

by Yarin on Feb 11, 2012 12:03 PM EST reply actions  

Free Agency will drive their draft strategy

If they come up empty in FA, they might want to trade down and accumulate 2 additional second rounders plus keep their two 1st rounders.

If they score big at OL, WR, CB, DT in FA, then they could trade up for a guy like TR.

by BENGALS69 on Feb 11, 2012 12:10 PM EST reply actions  

I don't know how they coudl possibly come up EMPTY in free agency with $44 million to spend

And please please please don’t anyone say “Mike Brown doesn’t spend in free agency” because I dont’ know how many times we have to debunk that myth on this board. We are going to be big players in free agency, we’re going to re-sign most of our own and we’ll make at least one major addition, more than likely 2. I can’t for the life of me figure out the argument for trading BACK in this draft. We have 11 picks as it is, 5 in the first 3 rounds (assuming a comp for JJo…let’s also not get into that debate again because it’s not set in stone either way and there’s as much reason to believe we will get on as to believe we won’t). We won’t have the roster space to sign 11 rookies, not unless we let most of our free agents leave and dont’ sign anyone to replace them…which would mean we’d be going tinto the season with somewhere in the neighborhood of $60-$70 million in cap space. That isn’t going to happen in the NFL.

by eric nyc on Feb 11, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Were going to reload our team gotta gut feeling

by pray4gm11 on Feb 11, 2012 12:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It's not that MB won't spend

It’s who he spends the money on. Washed up WR’s and guys that are busts (usually good players with off-the-field issues) or guys like Clements who are at the very end of their careers. We have to over pay or we don’t get big name FA’s. Players do not want to play in Cincinnati. It started with guys like Kevin Greene , who MB offered more money and instead he chose to go elsewhere for less and it has been that way ever since.

If I was a FA why would I choose Cincy when I know:
A) You will have to go through Pitt and Baltimore every season just to make the play-offs.
B) You know you will be practicing outside in bad weather and cold.
C) You know Cincinnati has MB as the owner and he is perceived as “cheap”.
D) You know the Bengals are known for off-the-field issues.

Like it or not when a FA with many options looks at the list above that usually = NO THANKS.

"Next season will be better" circa 1990

by Yarin on Feb 11, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's a really trite ESPN way of looking at things

People give free agents WAY too much credit just about all the time. Money’s all that matters. Sure, some 35 year old guy may care a bit more about going to a team he thinks he can win a ring with right now (cough*CHAD*cough) but you still have teams coming off awful years sign big free agents all the time. You think some professional football player is going to say “Well, Cincinnati is offering me a million more dollars than anyone else, but I’d have to practice in the cold a couple days a year…Screw that.” Come on. If you really believe that this is the way the NFL works, I don’t know why you’d even bother to follow this team. There is one reason and one reason alone we haven’t been successful in the past decade. His name is Carson Palmer. It was a crappy hand we were dealt, bad luck all around, but that’s the long and short of it. When he got hurt, his declining physical ability, lack of mental toughness, and enormous contract all held the organization down for 6 years. Turning the page.

We have two of the hottest coordinators in the league right now, we’re coming off a playoff season, we have the draft picks and money to improve on last year’s young and up and coming roster. There’s every reason to believe, as a FA, that you would be coming to a team on the rise priming itself to unseat Pittsburgh and Baltimore in the division – two teams who are getting ancient and running into huge salary cap issues. The argument doesn’t hold water anymore. It might have in 2003, or even 2011, but not now.

by eric nyc on Feb 11, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

ok..

I don’t know what to say.
We will see. I know what history has shown and it points to more of the same thing.
This team has been “up and coming” for years now and that hasn’t changed the minds of any big FA I have seen. We have even been called “Super Bowl contenders” in the recent years and that hasn’t changed anything.
I honestly hope I am wrong. I want the team to get some of these big time guys. I just doubt it.

"Next season will be better" circa 1990

by Yarin on Feb 11, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

That's your uncle talking...

If we’re looking at the Bengals from 1990-2010, then yes. History shows that MB will spend on washed-up WRs and useless big names if he spends at all.

But 2011 told a different story, and given the tumultuous re-signing of Marvin Lewis, I think we have reason to believe something is different. According to your “history,” nothing about 2011 makes sense. Nothing, other than maybe letting JJoe walk. The draft, the way we handled other free agents (Clements, Lawson, Howard…); those only make sense in the context of a change in offseason approach.

I'm throwin' rocks tonight! Mark it, Dude.

by Pardon_My_French on Feb 11, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

ok..

We lost JJoe, we had to sign someone else. If Clements or Jennings is a big time FA in your book, we are reading two different books.
Rivers and Muck both went down, we had no choice but to bring in others. Howard is a good LB but he wasn’t even a starter in Oakland his last season. He turned out to be a steal, but I guarantee none of them were considered top tier by anyone else.
Oh yeah who can forget Duece Lutui(sp) or Jean-Gilles they were top of the line AAA FA’s thank goodness we got McGlynn instead. Yes sir MB really broke the bank with those guys.
Who can forget Whitner, annoucing he was coming to Cincy and then bolting to SF at the last second. Yes sir big time FA’s want to play here, just not the middle to bottom tier guys.

Thank you for setting me straight on my thinking. I can now sleep better at night knowing I no longer think like my uncle.

"Next season will be better" circa 1990

by Yarin on Feb 11, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see why it's so hard to recognize that the organization is in a very different place than it was 12 months ago

Think about it…365 days ago we didn’t know who the head coach was going to be, who the OC was going to be, our franchise quarterback had just quit and we had no idea who was going to replace him, there was a lockout in the league that was crippling any attempt to build a solid roster or prepare for the season, and we were coming off a 4-win year that made us look like a trainwreck. Yeah, Clements and Lawson might have been the best FA’s we could muster last year. We were in a rebuilding process and no one had any idea how long it was going to take for a rookie QB to step in and actually win games.

And now, well I would hope I wouldn’t have to list the things that are different right now. To think the fact that we don’t have an indoor practice facility would be a KEY reason for a major free agent to turn down a top bid offer from the Bengals is just cynical and argumentative. We haven’t had this kind of cap space to play with since EVER. We haven’t had a strong personnel department making decisions instead of Mike Brown in over 20 years. Combine those things with a young team that has already found success and I dont’ know how you can be so overtly pessimistic. I’m not saying we are going to break the bank and march to the Super Bowl next year, but there’s no reason this team wouldn’t be an attractive destination for FA’s right now.

by eric nyc on Feb 11, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Eric nyc

I agree with almost everything you said. I do think things have changed. It’s just how much have they really changed? We don’t know that. I am just going by the history of the MB era.
Like 25 other teams out there, we think our team is a couple players from being elite. We all see our team through rose colored glasses. That’s part of being a fan.
If more than 1 team offers a FA the same contract, why would things like facilities not make a difference? We are talking about pampered and babied athletes.
We have the cash, we have the up and coming team let’s see what the front office does with this.

"Next season will be better" circa 1990

by Yarin on Feb 11, 2012 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Your jousting at strawmen

I didn’t say MB wouldn’t spend the money. I did say they might come up short. Why? It’s a free market and players have a choice. Maybe the players the Bengals covet decide to play elsewhere, in that case trading down is very smart. You did hear about the new CBA? How if drastically reduces rookie wages? They most definitely can add two extra 2ed rounders plus their own 1st rounders. Most likely cost far less than a big splash in FA. A top WR could easily cost $20 mill over 4 years…….close to Cam Newtons rookie deal. Yet the Bengals will be drafting in the mid to low 20s if they trade down.

by BENGALS69 on Feb 11, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Free agent Guard and possibly number 2 or a CB

Keep and use draft picks,i have confidence that Marvin and Co. will use these picks to fill our needs
Marv has done a terrific job in choosing his coordinators,and allowing them to help evaluate player’s

i think we are going to get so much media attention during this off-season,As far a Mike B being cheap,
I think most player’s can see the writing on the wall as far as this teams potential,as long as they get paid
Mike’s history,and former player’s opinion’s will not make that much of a difference.
Our division is up for grabs,Steeler’s are done,losing HOF Dick ,and Arians is going to expose Tomlin
The Ravens are old,this was there last good run
The Browns………..nuff said,Holmgren will be looking for a job soon

"A team is more than a group of individuals,its a group of individuals that come together to make a team"

by keithp on Feb 11, 2012 4:11 PM EST reply actions  

Time to pay up Mr Brown

Courtland Finnegan would be a nice pick up.I like his aggressive play.There are some really good players available in free agency and Brown needs to be ready and willling to spend the money that could really make this team a champion.

Kenneth Michael Powers

by BengalDude on Feb 11, 2012 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

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